Lakewood Shabbos rally

[Dywert]

I just read through this whole thread. I live in Lakewood and deal with these kids a lot. I feel for them and wish that I could help them more. I must however say that I think Aj3042 is 100% correct!! We can not let emotions overwhelm us. We should feel for them and Daven for them, but we still need to always do what is right.

[doodle]

ppl like elit and level6 seem to have ZERO red lines.
whatever a otd does must be uncoditionally accepted. 
rape incest murder drugs and chilul shabbos
YOU ARE DESTROYING WHATEVER IS LEFT OF YISROEL

[doodle]

I just read through this whole thread. I live in Lakewood and deal with these kids a lot. I feel for them and wish that I could help them more. I must however say that I think Aj3042 is 100% correct!! We can not let emotions overwhelm us. We should feel for them and Daven for them, but we still need to always do what is right.

thank you for posting here , some ppl here are badly misinformed or worse , ...

[aygart]

What makes me laugh (or nauseates me) is you guys who must feel so threatened by a bunch of kids who are failing at life. You're invoking dinim that apply to real apikursim. What are they? A bunch of boki b'Shas Conservative rabbis from 100 years ago? You'd think they were Spinoza or Mendelson or at least Marcus Jastrow the way you're coming out against them.

How is it different than maaseh Zimri? Exactly! Zimri was a nasi l'sheivet, an adam gadol. He had tens of thousands of followers. He wasn't a teenage kid who's illiterate in three languages and can barely get a minimum wage job.

When you start talking about their shechita is pasul... not mitztaref to a minyan... give me a break. What? One of these kids asked for Maftir Yonah?

Guys, get a grip.

They are making a whole hangout area in the center of the from area. It is not each individual but the atmosphere they are creating.

[avromie7]

Since when in a logical conversation, does someone bring up how one would feel if they were biased?

Do we ask a dayan how he would feel if he took shochad?


(I in no way intend to minimize the pain of the parents. I'm just pointing out that it really doesn't make sense to ask someone making a logical argument, how he would feel if he was biased)

You just took the words straight out of my mouth. Well said, which is why I responded in bold is this sums up what's going on here-emotion against Halacha.

Why is it only those who DO NOT understand the situation that are saying there is no need to understand?

[Aj3042]

I just read through this whole thread. I live in Lakewood and deal with these kids a lot. I feel for them and wish that I could help them more. I must however say that I think Aj3042 is 100% correct!! We can not let emotions overwhelm us. We should feel for them and Daven for them, but we still need to always do what is right.

Well said. It's sad and we have to deal with them softly and correctly (there are sometimes good reasons they are where they are) but there need to be some red lines as well.

[elit]

ppl like elit and level6 seem to have ZERO red lines.
whatever a otd does must be uncoditionally accepted. 
rape incest murder drugs and chilul shabbos
YOU ARE DESTROYING WHATEVER IS LEFT OF YISROEL

I'm out of this conversation 😰😰

[aygart]

Why is it only those who DO NOT understand the situation that are saying there is no need to understand?

you have yet to demonstrate your understanding

[Aj3042]

Why is it only those who DO NOT understand the situation that are saying there is no need to understand?

Public chillul shabbos is the situation. Period. Everything else is a side issue and must be dealt with separately.

[flyingace]

Why is it only those who DO NOT understand the situation that are saying there is no need to understand?

Who says we don't understand? There is a difference between helping kids and condoning everything they do. This is NOT about how to help OTD kids. That's been discussed, written about... and we stilll don't have one size fits all solutions. It really needs to be dealt with on an individual basis.
This IS about groups of kids publicly being Mechallel Shabbos. It is that which is being addressed and nothing else.

[Yehuda57]

Dear AJ,

I don't think you appreciate what people here are trying to say. No matter the severity of the issue, the question is your end game: what is it you hope to accomplish, and does this method have any chance of success?

Does anyone truly believe that this passive aggressive signing is going to cause these "kids" to stop doing this? I think it is blatantly obvious that having these crowds of "peaceful protesters" - well-meaning as they are, and the offenders behaving in a manner which is truly painful to witness - is more likely to backfire: The "kids" may move alright, but to a more central location so as to create a greater commotion (or it may create fist fights, as mentioned above).

You compare it to עריות (though I don't understand why) - so take the comparison further: if that was what was happening, would you send groups of men and children to sing songs near them? (What songs would you choose? Now there is a more fun discussion.)

Please stop building and destroying this straw man. It's getting tired and old fast.

[Sport]

Public chillul shabbos is the situation. Period. Everything else is a side issue and must be dealt with separately.

Ok fine we got your point public chillul shabbos is an issue thatvhas to be dealt with.
How does this deal with it ?

[Freddie]

Okay, dudes. Handle it however you want. Ironically, you are just breeding even more the same.

I am sympathetic to your disgust and horror at observing public chilul shabbos by formerly frum kids, but your approach is just exacerbating your problem. 

[Aj3042]

To both of the above-as the chafetz chaim once said in relation to something like this-"when it hurts you cry out". Given its extreme severity you don't take it sitting down. If hey we're raping people in the streets you wouldn't be so apologetic so here too. On something like this you make your voice heard-"ENOUGH!!!".

[Freddie]

To both of the above-as the chafetz chaim once said in relation to something like this-"when it hurts you cry out". Given its extreme severity you don't take it sitting down. If hey we're raping people in the streets you wouldn't be so apologetic so here too. On something like this you make your voice heard-"ENOUGH!!!".

Enough with the rape, you pervert.

[Baruch]

Why is it only those who DO NOT understand the situation that are saying there is no need to understand?

Who said there's no need to understand?

And how do you know who understands and who doesn't.

This is an anonymous forum.

Stop assuming that everyone who disagrees with you doesn't understand.

(I for one would agree with you, I just have respect for the rabbanim, and don't think their clueless or heartless)

You still haven't responded to the founder of Minyan Shelanu being pro.

(typed on the laptop you helped me buy - thanks  )

[avromie7]

To both of the above-as the chafetz chaim once said in relation to something like this-"when it hurts you cry out". Given its extreme severity you don't take it sitting down. If hey we're raping people in the streets you wouldn't be so apologetic so here too. On something like this you make your voice heard-"ENOUGH!!!".

So don't think about what you are doing, don't think will this help solve the problem, don't think rationally just get up and scream like a maniac no matter the consequences

I hope I understand what you are saying correctly

[Achas Veachas]

To both of the above-as the chafetz chaim once said in relation to something like this-"when it hurts you cry out". Given its extreme severity you don't take it sitting down. If hey we're raping people in the streets you wouldn't be so apologetic so here too. On something like this you make your voice heard-"ENOUGH!!!".

Now who was the one who said we need to put emotions on the side?

[dealvr]

ppl like elit and level6 seem to have ZERO red lines.
whatever a otd does must be uncoditionally accepted. 
rape incest murder drugs and chilul shabbos
YOU ARE DESTROYING WHATEVER IS LEFT OF YISROEL

You are a prime example of the problem.

On another note, these kids are on public property. This isn't Iran or North Korea.  They can (and will) do whatever they want.

[Aj3042]

Enough with the rape, you pervert.

Oh so you don't even like talking about-so sensitive all the sudden. Well guess what-chillul shabbos is that times 100! So if you want to defend chillul shabbos (or attack those who protect it) that nimshal will come into the conversation.
Btw on a side note that's not a way to argue. You're attacking me personally (though you don't know me) instead of the issue.