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I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Lakewood shabbos DO (singing kah echsof in the park, while smoking electric cigarettes using a shabbos switch

Confirmed:
Grodnoking (Need a shabbos switch for my Ecig, who can bring one?)

Probable:

Impossible:
henche


תניא פרק ל"ב

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג"כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי' הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי' גלות בתוך הרע מס"א הגובר עליה ברשעי' והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ"ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה"עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו' אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר"פ ט"ז דשבת]:

« Last edited by yesitsme on May 21, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »

Author Topic: Lakewood Shabbos rally  (Read 150509 times)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #320 on: May 18, 2015, 03:47:32 PM »
Now who was the one who said we need to put emotions on the side?

This whole conversation is just making me wish I had one of these.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #321 on: May 18, 2015, 03:47:42 PM »
A side note (not to compare)
in י-ם when they started closing the streets in the frum neighborhood on shabbos, to many it was a big win, R' Shlome Zalmen Oirbach was very bothered that the secular people will now drive more on Shabbos to reach there destination. {מפי השמועה}
["-"]

Offline somefield

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #322 on: May 18, 2015, 03:50:20 PM »
To both of the above-as the chafetz chaim once said in relation to something like this-"when it hurts you cry out". Given its extreme severity you don't take it sitting down. If hey we're raping people in the streets you wouldn't be so apologetic so here too. On something like this you make your voice heard-"ENOUGH!!!".
The story I heard about the Chofetz chaim in dealing with Chillul Shabbos was that he pulled the kid aside privately and cried without saying a word.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #323 on: May 18, 2015, 03:51:29 PM »
ppl like elit and level6 seem to have ZERO red lines.
whatever a otd does must be uncoditionally accepted. 
rape incest murder drugs and chilul shabbos
YOU ARE DESTROYING WHATEVER IS LEFT OF YISROEL
Are you hard of understanding? No one is condoning Chillul Shabbos or any of the other sins you mentioned. The discussion is how to deal with people who Nebach don't follow that path...

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #324 on: May 18, 2015, 03:58:22 PM »
I am seeing many people here make accusations without having demonstrated that they are not guilty of the same thing. SOme show that they definitely are guilty. People are saying that everyone should defer to "experts" without demonstrating that the experts agree or disagree with them. People tell others not to base on emotion and then base on emotion. People are saying not to ignore a second side of the issue and then ignore the first side. People say not to attack personally and then attack personally. Etc etc. etc.

There are two parts to the issue. Dealing with the underlying issues of these kids and dealing with the issue of their having this hangout where it is. Almost no one here has offered anything to deal with BOTH. Everyone is saying to deal with one and not the other.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #325 on: May 18, 2015, 04:04:48 PM »
I am seeing many people here make accusations without having demonstrated that they are not guilty of the same thing. SOme show that they definitely are guilty. People are saying that everyone should defer to "experts" without demonstrating that the experts agree or disagree with them. People tell others not to base on emotion and then base on emotion. People are saying not to ignore a second side of the issue and then ignore the first side. People say not to attack personally and then attack personally. Etc etc. etc.

There are two parts to the issue. Dealing with the underlying issues of these kids and dealing with the issue of their having this hangout where it is. Almost no one here has offered anything to deal with BOTH. Everyone is saying to deal with one and not the other.
Hence:
This whole conversation is just making me wish I had one of these.

Offline thaber

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #326 on: May 18, 2015, 04:08:25 PM »
The story I heard about the Chofetz chaim in dealing with Chillul Shabbos was that he pulled the kid aside privately and cried without saying a word.
True story, and worthy of this conversation.
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/publicat/hazon/tzedaka/tears.htm

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #327 on: May 18, 2015, 04:10:59 PM »


Who said there's no need to understand?

And how do you know who understands and who doesn't.

This is an anonymous forum.

Stop assuming that everyone who disagrees with you doesn't understand.

(I for one would agree with you, I just have respect for the rabbanim, and don't think their clueless or heartless)

You still haven't responded to the founder of Minyan Shelanu being pro.

(typed on the laptop you helped me buy - thanks  :) )

I don't really have time but I'll respond quickly
So far anyone saying its very simple you just need to be mocheh does not know any of them that is a very clear proof that they are missing understanding

As far as rabbi abadi goes I don't believe for a second that he said what he was quoted as saying
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #328 on: May 18, 2015, 04:18:35 PM »

I don't really have time but I'll respond quickly
So far anyone saying its very simple you just need to be mocheh does not know any of them that is a very clear proof that they are missing understanding

As far as rabbi abadi goes I don't believe for a second that he said what he was quoted as saying
If anyone thinks that it is a simple decision to go be mocheh, I agree they're clueless.

The decision to go be mocheh is a decision of nefashos.

But if Rabbanim decide that for the greater good of the community this must be done, it doesn't make them heartless Kana'im.
I'm sure it hurts Rav Yeruchom more than you and me the pain these kids are going thru. And I'm sure it bothers him more than me and you the impression these kids make on other kids.

As I said before, I'm neutral on this issue. But, I don't see why anyone on either side should be called names, or have their understanding of the issues questioned.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #329 on: May 18, 2015, 04:27:35 PM »
If anyone thinks that it is a simple decision to go be mocheh, I agree they're clueless.

The decision to go be mocheh is a decision of nefashos.

But if Rabbanim decide that for the greater good of the community this must be done, it doesn't make them heartless Kana'im.
I'm sure it hurts Rav Yeruchom more than you and me the pain these kids are going thru. And I'm sure it bothers him more than me and you the impression these kids make on other kids.

As I said before, I'm neutral on this issue. But, I don't see why anyone on either side should be called names, or have their understanding of the issues questioned.
And whemn did R' Yeruchem say to rally and sing? even the letter supposedly signed by the RY doesn't say to rally and sing
BTW I greatly respect R Yeruchem for what he's done in the past, taken time from his shabbos afternoon to speak to the lost souls in his community
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #330 on: May 18, 2015, 04:44:03 PM »
And whemn did R' Yeruchem say to rally and sing? even the letter supposedly signed by the RY doesn't say to rally and sing
BTW I greatly respect R Yeruchem for what he's done in the past, taken time from his shabbos afternoon to speak to the lost souls in his community
I cannot imagine that what actually happened is what the organizers intended.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline monkey

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #331 on: May 18, 2015, 04:46:37 PM »
I don't necessarily think that these protests will do any good or change these otd kids views. If there's the need to make a machoeh I think there's other ways to show that it's not acceptable to be mechalel shabbos publicly other than this whole shpiel.

But being that there are (what looks like there is) rabbanim that probably understand the situation better than I do behind these protests I guess it's the right thing.

I just know that many times the rabbanim sign these documents based on what the one 'askan' thinks the situation is and didn't always give over all the info the way it really is. I hope that's not the situation here.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #332 on: May 18, 2015, 04:49:31 PM »
I cannot imagine that what actually happened is what the organizers intended.
But they should have expected it and they should stop it
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #333 on: May 18, 2015, 07:25:50 PM »
It doesn't seem like the goal was to help the kids so we can stop arguing whether this is the best way to resolve it. The point was to make them feel uncomfortable.

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #334 on: May 18, 2015, 07:28:30 PM »
It doesn't seem like the goal was to help the kids so we can stop arguing whether this is the best way to resolve it. The point was to make them feel uncomfortable.
Then thats a pointless waste of time, they will win that game easily...

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #335 on: May 18, 2015, 07:28:35 PM »
It doesn't seem like the goal was to help the kids so we can stop arguing whether this is the best way to resolve it. The point was to make them feel uncomfortable.
And what's the point in that?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline asd

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #336 on: May 18, 2015, 07:30:11 PM »
And whemn did R' Yeruchem say to rally and sing? even the letter supposedly signed by the RY doesn't say to rally and sing
BTW I greatly respect R Yeruchem for what he's done in the past, taken time from his shabbos afternoon to speak to the lost souls in his community
I was told by numerous people that Rav Yeruchem was there by this machoa, you can see him in video # 2 at the 19 second mark on  the far right of the screen.
https://youtu.be/cXXfaakPra8

Offline PTU

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #337 on: May 18, 2015, 07:41:23 PM »
And what's the point in that?
The kids have a comfortable place to sin. We don't want that, do we?

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #338 on: May 18, 2015, 07:44:40 PM »
The kids have a comfortable place to sin. We don't want that, do we?
Just saying what you don't want doesn't work if it takes you to something worse so you need to figure out what you do want and how will you get there
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #339 on: May 18, 2015, 08:57:20 PM »
And whemn did R' Yeruchem say to rally and sing?
Rav Yeruchom is seen leading a crowd of singing people in the video.

I also heard from a participant ( a 65 year old posek) that Rav Yeruchom was sitting with everybody singing, and motioned to the OTD kids to join.