Lakewood Shabbos rally

[Aj3042]

a) Pikuach Nefesh always superseded the whole Torah.

b) You can't equate the Haskalah movement and the Reform movement from the days of the Tzemach Tzedek and the Baaley Taavah of today...

Pikuach nefesh? What shaychas?
Anyone disagreeing whit my point has to answer my question in bold above where you see halacha isn't changed by such modern claims of "we might further alienate them so let's not do the right thing".

[yitrap]

Seriously-what's your point-you found one person who said kiruv is a good thing? People way before the baal hatanya said it. How does that negate what I said that "it hasn't been mentioned that much-not much in the Torah, Mishna, Gemara or Rishonim (a little, not a great focus)". You just showed me one place (and not even the most authoritative one you couldn't brought in). Nobody says kiruv is wrong but if it comes at the expense of other mitzvos it's a separate discussion.

How about you show me in shulchan aruch where it says that if someone is mechlel shabbos you can still count him to a minyan because not doing so would further alienate him? Or do you see that that point is irrelevant when it comes to halalcha?

You're worried for the people that are doing the kiruv and bringing them to places and getting them to daven that they aren't davening with a minyan? I have no doubt they has a Rov who thought of that for them

[avromie7]

Pikuach nefesh? What shaychas?

Ummmm we should try to save these kids spiritual lives

[Aj3042]

You're worried for the people that are doing the kiruv and bringing them to places and getting them to daven that they aren't davening with a minyan? I have no doubt they has a Rov who thought of that for them

No no no-I'm making a point that we don't say you can bring them in because treating them as goyim will alienate them. We do what's right and that's that. Same here with public chillul shabbos-we do what we have to do.

[Menachem613]

I wonder how many good Lakewood teens are so disgusted by the events that they are now susceptible to going OTD in the future.

[yitrap]

No no no-I'm making a point that we don't say you can bring them in because treating them as goyim will alienate them. We do what's right and that's that. Same here with public chillul shabbos-we do what we have to do.

We don't have to march down to the lake! why do we have to march down to the lake? please explain it to me

[Achas Veachas]

Anyone disagreeing whit my point has to answer my question in bold above where you see halacha isn't changed by such modern claims of "we might further alienate them so let's not do the right thing".

To paraphrase the Frierdiker Rebbe, there are 4 Chalakim in Shulchan Aruch, the Halachos of Moridin Ve'ein Maalin are in the end of the fourth, your choice of the Halachos you focus on says a lot...

[Aj3042]

Ummmm we should try to save these kids spiritual lives

Again it seems like you feel like you can bend halachos to help be mekarev people. Simple question-if I can drive an OTD kid to the mall oon shabbos to prevent him from hanging out by the lake wiht his bad buddies, is that ok bec of pikuach nefesh?

seriously what's wrong with some of you people. You can't make up new halachos like this. Protesting public chilllul shabbos is not pikuach nefesh bec it may anger some OTD kids by any stretch of the imagination.

How can you guys make up such dinim when the dinim of pikuach nefesh are spelled out quite clearly?

[Aj3042]

We don't have to march down to the lake! why do we have to march down to the lake? please explain it to me

You said please so you get it ....bec we have to show oursleves, our kids, and these OTD kids that public chillul shabbos, especially when it's done to flaunt us, won't be tolerated.
Nebech christian kids would have more respect for religion than these guys do. Good christian kids wouldn't hang around like that just out of respect. Not only do these kids violate shabbos but they do so disrespectfully of other sensitivities as well.

[AsherO]

Ummmm we should try to save these kids spiritual lives

If they're getting into drugs, it could also mean they physical lives R"L.

[Achas Veachas]

Again it seems like you feel like you can bend halachos to help be mekarev people. Simple question-if I can drive an OTD kid to the mall oon shabbos to prevent him from hanging out by the lake wiht his bad buddies, is that ok bec of pikuach nefesh?

What's the connection between being Mechallel Shabbos yourself and not protesting someone else's Chillul Shabbos?

[Menachem613]

You said please so you get it ....bec we have to show oursleves, our kids, and these OTD kids that public chillul shabbos, especially when it's done to flaunt us, won't be tolerated.
Nebech christian kids would have more respect for religion than these guys do. Good christian kids wouldn't hang around like that just out of respect. Not only do these kids violate shabbos but they do so disrespectfully of other sensitivities as well.

But OTD Christians kids would.

[AsherO]

You said please so you get it ....bec we have to show oursleves, our kids, and these OTD kids that public chillul shabbos, especially when it's done to flaunt us, won't be tolerated.
Nebech christian kids would have more respect for religion than these guys do. Good christian kids wouldn't hang around like that just out of respect. Not only do these kids violate shabbos but they do so disrespectfully of other sensitivities as well.

Maybe that should tell you something about these kids and the psychological state of mind they are in. They need help!!!

[Sport]

And you're equating not agreeing with that as "bending halacha" !?

[yitrap]

You said please so you get it ....bec we have to show oursleves, our kids, and these OTD kids that public chillul shabbos, especially when it's done to flaunt us, won't be tolerated.
Nebech christian kids would have more respect for religion than these guys do. Good christian kids wouldn't hang around like that just out of respect. Not only do these kids violate shabbos but they do so disrespectfully of other sensitivities as well.

Show yourself in other ways
Show your kids in healthy ways
Don't show the OTD kids anything - they won't listen to your musser anyways and I don't think it's done to flaunt you.
Please don't use the shvartza on the street card especially cause I don't think in the same scenario it would be true

[Sport]

Pikuach nefesh? What shaychas?

Yes , according to reb Eliyashiv and reb shtienman (to name a few) Its "Pushot Pikuach Nefesh".  Not that we really need them to confirm such an obvious fact

[Aj3042]

Yes , according to reb Eliyashiv and reb shtienman (to name a few) Its "Pushot Pikuach Nefesh".  Not that we really need them to confirm such an obvious fact

Aha ok so I'll meet you at the mall this shabbos. You drive an OTD teen there I'll drive another.
Anybody else in? Shabbos DO at the mall? Everybody drive and bring an OTD teen-it's for kiruv and it's pikuach nefesh so it's all good. We're just trying to keep them away from bad influneces so the whole Torah is off.

If they're getting into drugs, it could also mean they physical lives R"L.

Ok so you're in for the DO too. We got 3 so far-anybody else in???

[Dan]

Maybe you're the one that sent him that text message?

[Aj3042]

Maybe you're the one that sent him that text message?

Hmm you're onto me now.

[aygart]

a) Pikuach Nefesh always superseded the whole Torah.

Pikuach nefesh? What shaychas?

Ummmm we should try to save these kids spiritual lives

Yes , according to reb Eliyashiv and reb shtienman (to name a few) Its "Pushot Pikuach Nefesh".  Not that we really need them to confirm such an obvious fact

do any of you actually believe that it is pikuach nefesh in the sense that it is doche kol hatorah?