Lakewood Shabbos rally

[yitrap]

Great, meet you in the park by the lake.

We can even smoke on shabbos not to make the OTD kids feel bad...Pekuach Nefesh and all
AJ- IM KIDDING

[Achas Veachas]

Also there is a difference of having a halachik status of pikuach nefesh or looking at a situation as so dire it is like pikuac nefesh and you should do everything in your power within the context of halacha to help with that situation.

I am sorry if you weren't explained that last point well, but it just takes some common sense to figure it out.

I believe this answers all of your questions.

Thanks! I was just about to post clarifying how my Pikuach Nefesh was completely misunderstood, thanks for clarifying...

[avromie7]

So the argument is really coming down to is the protest a good thing.

It seems you are not taking the OTD's into consideration, while the others are taking them into consideration.

Others are saying the protest itself is a bad thing because it will cause OTD's to go off even more. If the argument starts there you can understand why halacha has nothing to do with this argument it is a question of hashkafa and if you look at ll yidden as one and there aveira is my aveira, or do we care for our kids and don't care about pushing the OTD's away even more.

Also there is a difference of having a halachik status of pikuach nefesh or looking at a situation as so dire it is like pikuac nefesh and you should do everything in your power within the context of halacha to help with that situation.

I am sorry if you weren't explained that last point well, but it just takes some common sense to figure it out.

I believe this answers all of your questions.

(ETA: I think it all comes down to you are only looking at it from your kids perspective while others are also taking into consideration the OTD's, if you see that I think you'll be more comfortable with the disagreement here.)

Beautifully explained

[elit]

So the argument is really coming down to is the protest a good thing.

It seems you are not taking the OTD's into consideration, while the others are taking them into consideration.

Others are saying the protest itself is a bad thing because it will cause OTD's to go off even more. If the argument starts there you can understand why halacha has nothing to do with this argument it is a question of hashkafa and if you look at ll yidden as one and there aveira is my aveira, or do we care for our kids and don't care about pushing the OTD's away even more.

Also there is a difference of having a halachik status of pikuach nefesh or looking at a situation as so dire it is like pikuac nefesh and you should do everything in your power within the context of halacha to help with that situation.

I am sorry if you weren't explained that last point well, but it just takes some common sense to figure it out.

I believe this answers all of your questions.

(ETA: I think it all comes down to you are only looking at it from your kids perspective while others are also taking into consideration the OTD's, if you see that I think you'll be more comfortable with the disagreement here.)

Thanks! I was just about to post clarifying how my Pikuach Nefesh was completely misunderstood, thanks for clarifying...

If he needed that explained then there's no point in arguing with him and if he didn't need that explained then he was being disingenuous and again there's no point in arguing....

[Ergel]

So the argument is really coming down to is the protest a good thing.

It seems you are not taking the OTD's into consideration, while the others are taking them into consideration.

Others are saying the protest itself is a bad thing because it will cause OTD's to go off even more. If the argument starts there you can understand why halacha has nothing to do with this argument it is a question of hashkafa and if you look at ll yidden as one and there aveira is my aveira, or do we care for our kids and don't care about pushing the OTD's away even more.

Also there is a difference of having a halachik status of pikuach nefesh or looking at a situation as so dire it is like pikuac nefesh and you should do everything in your power within the context of halacha to help with that situation.

I am sorry if you weren't explained that last point well, but it just takes some common sense to figure it out.

I believe this answers all of your questions.

(ETA: I think it all comes down to you are only looking at it from your kids perspective while others are also taking into consideration the OTD's, if you see that I think you'll be more comfortable with the disagreement here.)

I disagree.
I think even if you don't take the OTD's into consideration this protest is not the way to go up about strengthening your own kedushas shabbos.

[Aj3042]

So the argument is really coming down to is the protest a good thing.

It seems you are not taking the OTD's into consideration, while the others are taking them into consideration.

Others are saying the protest itself is a bad thing because it will cause OTD's to go off even more. If the argument starts there you can understand why halacha has nothing to do with this argument it is a question of hashkafa and if you look at ll yidden as one and there aveira is my aveira, or do we care for our kids and don't care about pushing the OTD's away even more.

Also there is a difference of having a halachik status of pikuach nefesh or looking at a situation as so dire it is like pikuac nefesh and you should do everything in your power within the context of halacha to help with that situation.

I am sorry if you weren't explained that last point well, but it just takes some common sense to figure it out.

I believe this answers all of your questions.

(ETA: I think it all comes down to you are only looking at it from your kids perspective while others are also taking into consideration the OTD's, if you see that I think you'll be more comfortable with the disagreement here.)

And yet others are saying that protesting public chillul shabbos, especially when it's being done to flaunt and disrespect us, is the right thing, regardless of the effect it will have on OTD kids doing it.
I challenge you to find a posek like the chafetz chaim who was active in "protesting" chillul shabbos in whatever way possible, including railing against those who desecrate it, who ever held is tongue because of the effect it might have on some OTD kids who were already off.
I believe this answers all of your questions.

[Achas Veachas]

And yet others are saying that protesting public chillul shabbos, especially when it's being done to flaunt and disrespect us, is the right thing, regardless of the effect it will have on OTD kids doing it.
I challenge you to find a posek like the chafetz chaim who was active in "protesting" chillul shabbos in whatever way possible, including railing against those who desecrate it, who ever held is tongue because of the effect it might have on some OTD kids who were already off.
I believe this answers all of your questions.

b) You can't equate the Haskalah movement and the Reform movement from the days of the Tzemach Tzedek and the Baaley Taavah of today...

[elit]

And yet others are saying that protesting public chillul shabbos, especially when it's being done to flaunt and disrespect us, is the right thing, regardless of the effect it will have on OTD kids doing it.
I challenge you to find a posek like the chafetz chaim who was active in "protesting" chillul shabbos in whatever way possible, including railing against those who desecrate it, who ever held is tongue because of the effect it might have on some OTD kids who were already off.
I believe this answers all of your questions.

I believe we have aldready addressed this numerous times you can't compare the michaliley shabbos of those times to now and anyway please show me a time where the Chofetz chaim protested like this?

[avromie7]

I disagree.
I think even if you don't take the OTD's into consideration this protest is not the way to go up about strengthening your own kedushas shabbos.

I agree but the other half of jj1000 post was great

[Aj3042]

I believe we have aldready addressed this numerous times you can't compare the michaliley shabbos of those times to now and anyway please show me a time where the Chofetz chaim protested like this?

I'm just curious-why is it so simple to you that you can't compare it? Who decided that-you? Does it occur to you that even with the differences there are many similarities as well? People went OTD then for many of the same reasons they do today.

[Baruch]

I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Thanks for your 2 cents. This is the first post in this long thread that actually made me more informed about the subject.

[jj1000]

I disagree.
I think even if you don't take the OTD's into consideration this protest is not the way to go up about strengthening your own kedushas shabbos.

I apologize for lumping everyone into one category. Yes, there are some people on both sides of the coin where they hold the protest is good even if it turns off more kids, and some people who say it's bad even for ones own kids.

And yet others are saying that protesting public chillul shabbos, especially when it's being done to flaunt and disrespect us, is the right thing, regardless of the effect it will have on OTD kids doing it.
I challenge you to find a posek like the chafetz chaim who was active in "protesting" chillul shabbos in whatever way possible, including railing against those who desecrate it, who ever held is tongue because of the effect it might have on some OTD kids who were already off.
I believe this answers all of your questions.

This is not about halacha. It is hashkafa. So you can't expect someone else to just agree with your hashkafa, please realize people see things differently than you and move on. Did the chofetz chaim say you have to protest every chillul shabbos? If not there is no chiyuv to protest this, and you don't have to feel a need to force others to join.

If you want to argue then argue about why it does or doesn't effect otd kids, and whether you should care about otd kids or not. But to say the protest is a must is pointless to argue about. And it seems like all arguments were already presented here for both sides.

I didn't ask any questions, so ending you response in you think it answered my questions makes you sound silly. Also not agreeing with or acknowledging an explanation of the pikuach nefesh questions makes you seem argumentative and not interested in finding answers but rather interested in antagonizing and arguing for the sake of arguing. 

I agree but the other half of jj1000 post was great

Thanks

[Achas Veachas]

I'm just curious-why is it so simple to you that you can't compare it? Who decided that-you? Does it occur to you that even with the differences there are many similarities as well? People went OTD then for many of the same reasons they do today.

Then, for the most part, it was ideology. These kids are, for the most part, Baaley Taavah.

The Frierdiker Rebbe once told someone who bragged that he was an Apikores "You can't become an Apikores by cracking nuts (the yiddish expression for wasting time), you are not an Apikores you are an Am Ha'aretz".

[aygart]

So the argument is really coming down to is the protest a good thing.

It seems you are not taking the OTD's into consideration, while the others are taking only them into consideration.

FTFY

[Baruch]

That was a terrible oversite by the organizers. The needed to put on the signs "for adults only". (For those who are just mind numbingly naive enough to bring their teens along)

The week b4 there was a peaceful walk led by Rav Malkiel, that sign stated that it's only for Avreichim.

[elit]

I'm just curious-why is it so simple to you that you can't compare it? Who decided that-you? Does it occur to you that even with the differences there are many similarities as well? People went OTD then for many of the same reasons they do today.

My Rebbiem. though it's common sense. And the fact that you can say they're similar imho demonstrates your clueless on this subject

[Aj3042]

Then, for the most part, it was ideology. These kids are, for the most part, Baaley Taavah.

The Frierdiker Rebbe once told someone who bragged that he was an Apikores "You can't become an Apikores by cracking nuts (the yiddish expression for wasting time), you are not an Apikores you are an Am Ha'aretz".

Understood-but who says that changes anything? You do-you need to back yourself up then with clear proof (and one hearsay from one rebbe doesn't cut it, sorry).
And btw don't act like many of the "underlying causes" today didn't have any effect then. Almost all the "reasons" people go OTD today existed then as well. They may have been going into ideology but thee same way we ascribe today's OTD's to underlying causes we can do it with them as well.

[Aj3042]

My Rebbiem. though it's common sense. And the fact that you can say they're similar imho demonstrates your clueless on this subject

Your rebbeim? Who are they? Why should I or anyone else listen to them? Are you telling me Rav Moshe Feinstein told you this, an accepted authority, or was it some Joe Shmoe you think is smarter than you and so you?
Seriously "my rebbeim"? At least Achas brings down from his Rebbes so we know who' saying what.

[Shmelly]

I recently heard Rabbi Wallerstein (Nobody can blame him for not caring) making a very valid point at a Kiruv convention. For all that we talk about what parents or teachers did wrong that might have caused it, we forget  that many times we should just blame the kids themselves and their yetzer hara.
Of course, that doesn't mean that we don't have to deal with it.

There is so much truth in this statement. Most kids' reason for going off only materializes after they're already off. The cause is decided after the effect already happened. (Of course, there are plenty that do have a legit impetus for what caused them to go off, but in my estimation most don't.)

[Aj3042]

There is so much truth in this statement. Most kids' reason for going off only materializes after they're already off. The cause is decided after the effect already happened. (Of course, there are plenty that do have a legit impetus for what caused them to go off, but in my estimation most don't.)

No but you can't say this it's not politically correct.

My Rebbiem. though it's common sense. And the fact that you can say they're similar imho demonstrates your clueless on this subject

You know when I ask you a question I expect an answer based on reason or based on source. Telling someone "My Reeeebi told me this" is just being a robot. If you can't think logically on your own and present your evidence don't argue. Have your rebbi here arguing.