Lakewood Shabbos rally

[elit]

Your rebbeim? Who are they? Why should I or anyone else listen to them? Are you telling me Rav Moshe Feinstein told you this, an accepted authority, or was it some Joe Shmoe you think is smarter than you and so you?
Seriously "my rebbeim"? At least Achas brings down from his Rebbes so we know who' saying what.

You asked me where i got that from i didn't say that Was the reason you should stop or believe anything

Understood-but who says that changes anything? You do-you need to back yourself up then with clear proof (and one hearsay from one rebbe doesn't cut it, sorry).
And btw don't act like many of the "underlying causes" today didn't have any effect then. Almost all the "reasons" people go OTD today existed then as well. They may have been going into ideology but thee same way we ascribe today's OTD's to underlying causes we can do it with them as well.

Really? So molestation was an underlying cause then? How about bad parenting? How about extreme insensitivity to individual children's needs in yeshivas?

[elit]

No but you can't say this it's not politically correct.You know when I ask you a question I expect an answer based on reason or based on source. Telling someone "My Reeeebi told me this" is just being a robot. If you can't think logically on your own and present your evidence don't argue. Have your rebbi here arguing.

Reason was assumed obvious therefore i figured you were asking for a source so if its from a written source than its fine but if its frim my rebbeim who are my daas Torah and a chain in mesorah than i am a robot?

[Aj3042]

You asked me where i got that from i didn't say that Was the reason you should stop or believe anything

Really? So molestation was an underlying cause then? How about bad parenting? How about extreme insensitivity to individual children's needs in yeshivas?

Um you think molestation didn't happen then? What makes you so sure?
Bad parenting-yeah fathers would beat their kids if they didn't keep shabbos. Is that the bad parenting you refer to? Seriously people were crazy harsh then. If a father would act with his kid the way they used to you'd yell that he's pushing him OTD.
Most kids didn't go to yeshiva then and no they didn't have doting rebbeim over them all day as they worked in the blacksmith shop.
come on get real. Life then was really tough not like today.

[Aj3042]

Reason was assumed obvious therefore i figured you were asking for a source so if its from a written source than its fine but if its frim my rebbeim who are my daas Torah and a chain in mesorah than i am a robot?

Your rebbe is daas torah and a chain in the mesorah? I know plenty of american joe shmoes who claim the same. Who's your rebbe? Unless he's a really accepted authority his opinion mean nothing to anyone but those who accept him.

[Menachem613]

Understood-but who says that changes anything? You do-you need to back yourself up then with clear proof (and one hearsay from one rebbe doesn't cut it, sorry).
And btw don't act like many of the "underlying causes" today didn't have any effect then. Almost all the "reasons" people go OTD today existed then as well. They may have been going into ideology but thee same way we ascribe today's OTD's to underlying causes we can do it with them as well.

Totally wrong. In the olden days it was done so they could be worldly and get out of shtetl life which was viewed as backwards. Nowadays, you can you be Frum and still go to university and the like.

[Menachem613]

Your rebbe is daas torah and a chain in the mesorah? I know plenty of american joe shmoes who claim the same. Who's your rebbe? Unless he's a really accepted authority his opinion mean nothing to anyone but those who accept him.

You make it sound that there are Daas Torah that are universally accepted. Keep dreaming.

[elit]

Your rebbe is daas torah and a chain in the mesorah? I know plenty of american joe shmoes who claim the same. Who's your rebbe? Unless he's a really accepted authority his opinion mean nothing to anyone but those who accept him.

You asked me where i got that from i didn't say that Was the reason you should stop or believe anything

[elit]

Um you think molestation didn't happen then? What makes you so sure?
Bad parenting-yeah fathers would beat their kids if they didn't keep shabbos. Is that the bad parenting you refer to? Seriously people were crazy harsh then. If a father would act with his kid the way they used to you'd yell that he's pushing him OTD.
Most kids didn't go to yeshiva then and no they didn't have doting rebbeim over them all day as they worked in the blacksmith shop.
come on get real. Life then was really tough not like today.

Im going to follow my own advice

If he needed that explained then there's no point in arguing with him and if he didn't need that explained then he was being disingenuous and again there's no point in arguing....

[Aj3042]

You make it sound that there are Daas Torah that are universally accepted. Keep dreaming.

I did not. But some people's views you have to stop and listen to while others are totally relevant.

Im going to follow my own advice

Nobody told you not to. I just told you not to expect your rebbi's advice or opinions (whoever he is) to carry any weight with others.

[asd]

This is a post from from Ben Turin a lawyer in Lakewood on FB-  It may have been clumsy, however, I believe the efforts stemmed from a deep felt sense of caring. I have heard a number of first-hand reports from individuals that were there, that following the initial "march", there was a great deal of positive one on one interaction including some of the Lakewood rabbis hanging out with the kids for an extended period of time and talking. Equally interesting, I personally am aware of a number of grass-roots initiatives have taken root in the few days since.
 As an example of the efforts I mentioned in my earlier post, Oorah has received a number of requests from local individuals for assistance in putting together programming for Lakewood youth who are disenchanted with the "main-stream" community.

[elit]

I did not. But some people's views you have to stop and listen to while others are totally relevant.Nobody told you not to. I just told you not to expect your rebbi's advice or opinions (whoever he is) to carry any weight with others.

You did not follow that....

[PTU]

This is a post from from Ben Turin a lawyer in Lakewood on FB-  It may have been clumsy, however, I believe the efforts stemmed from a deep felt sense of caring. I have heard a number of first-hand reports from individuals that were there, that following the initial "march", there was a great deal of positive one on one interaction including some of the Lakewood rabbis hanging out with the kids for an extended period of time and talking. Equally interesting, I personally am aware of a number of grass-roots initiatives have taken root in the few days since.
 As an example of the efforts I mentioned in my earlier post, Oorah has received a number of requests from local individuals for assistance in putting together programming for Lakewood youth who are disenchanted with the "main-stream" community.

+1

[elit]

+1

R u somehow trying to connect that to your arguments?

[yuneeq]

This is a post from from Ben Turin a lawyer in Lakewood on FB-  It may have been clumsy, however, I believe the efforts stemmed from a deep felt sense of caring. I have heard a number of first-hand reports from individuals that were there, that following the initial "march", there was a great deal of positive one on one interaction including some of the Lakewood rabbis hanging out with the kids for an extended period of time and talking. Equally interesting, I personally am aware of a number of grass-roots initiatives have taken root in the few days since.
 As an example of the efforts I mentioned in my earlier post, Oorah has received a number of requests from local individuals for assistance in putting together programming for Lakewood youth who are disenchanted with the "main-stream" community.

It doesn't matter what Ben Turin thinks. 
Avromie7 already decided it was an epic failure, regardless of my report otherwise.

[Aj3042]

It doesn't matter what Ben Turin thinks. 
Avromie7 already decided it was an epic failure, regardless of my report otherwise.

Haha

[elit]

It doesn't matter what Ben Turin thinks. 
Avromie7 already decided it was an epic failure, regardless of my report otherwise.

Haha

You can't have it both ways. You cant spend days arguing that it's irrelevant what happens to the otd kids as a result of the protest and then try to use some positive result to the otd kids as support for your position

[aygart]

You can't have it both ways. You cant spend days arguing that it's irrelevant what happens to the otd kids as a result of the protest and then try to use some positive result to the otd kids as support for your position

I guess your premise that anyone who was for the gathering couldn't care less about the kids was wrong. Probably just as wrong as saying that those who are against it couldn't care less about shabbos.

[avromie7]

I guess your premise that anyone who was for the gathering couldn't care less about the kids was wrong. Probably just as wrong as saying that those who are against it couldn't care less about shabbos.

That's like saying when assad used chemical weapons it was good because that caused others to get involved and help the Syrian citizens oppressed by his regime

[Aj3042]

You can't have it both ways. You cant spend days arguing that it's irrelevant what happens to the otd kids as a result of the protest and then try to use some positive result to the otd kids as support for your position

Indeed I made no mention of that point bec I don't think it is directly relevant (though it does show that even if we are taking them into consideration you still may be wrong). I was merely responding to his joke which was well put.

[aygart]

That's like saying when assad used chemical weapons it was good because that caused others to get involved and help the Syrian citizens oppressed by his regime

Fine, if you insist. So you don't care about shabbos.