Topic Wiki

Top rated point of view
I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Lakewood shabbos DO (singing kah echsof in the park, while smoking electric cigarettes using a shabbos switch

Confirmed:
Grodnoking (Need a shabbos switch for my Ecig, who can bring one?)

Probable:

Impossible:
henche


תניא פרק ל"ב

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג"כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי' הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי' גלות בתוך הרע מס"א הגובר עליה ברשעי' והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ"ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה"עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו' אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר"פ ט"ז דשבת]:

« Last edited by yesitsme on May 21, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »

Author Topic: Lakewood Shabbos rally  (Read 78586 times)

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 5264
  • Total likes: 493
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2015, 07:29:35 PM »
And this is going to stop the it how? I see two problems with this situation and I'm not sure which is the worse "epidemic"...
Very well put
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3108
  • Total likes: 250
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2015, 07:29:42 PM »
I have tremendous rachmonos on them and their families but as i said when there is a epidemic you to have actually use  unkind methods to stop it.
In other words: sacrifice a few wayward souls in order to save the whole, right?

Offline Fish Tank

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 402
  • Total likes: 34
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2015, 07:29:54 PM »
I have tremendous rachmonos on them and their families but as i said when there is a epidemic you to have actually use  unkind methods to stop it.
Lolol.

What amazing an "method".

Just curious,  do you have any experience with OTD kids/teenagers?

Offline tjak

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 548
  • Total likes: 25
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2015, 07:29:56 PM »

Be kind and accepting
Have somewhere else for them to hang out maybe open the minyan on shabbos too
Next week why don't you kindly invite them to chill in your backyard and that will solve all the problems.

Offline yitrap

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 3319
  • Total likes: 49
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2015, 07:30:23 PM »

The so called experts had their chance and failed miserably, now its time to isolate them
Why so bitter?

Offline asd

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 280
  • Total likes: 6
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: nj
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2015, 07:30:27 PM »
Its going to stop the problem from getting much worse but wont help the kids who are nebuch in pain

Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1288
  • Total likes: 111
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2015, 07:30:58 PM »
I actually read thru the thread b4 watching the video and i am even more horrorified than i thought i would be. I was expecting a bunch of yeshiva guys not hundreds of grown men. And they brought their young kids!!??! Dont give me any dumb epidemic svarah when you bring your own kid to witness this

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4223
  • Total likes: 31
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2015, 07:31:55 PM »
The so called experts had their chance and failed miserably, now its time to isolate them
Maybe that is the problem? That the 99% sit and think "let the experts take care of it"? This is not a problem of experts, this is a problem of Klal Yisrael, they are all our children...
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1288
  • Total likes: 111
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2015, 07:31:58 PM »
Next week why don't you kindly invite them to chill in your backyard and that will solve all the problems.
Not with wonderful problem solvers like you around

Offline mek

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 492
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2015, 07:32:11 PM »
And what should be done to stop this trend

Is this trend specifically in the more yeshivish/chassidish communities due to the general lack of acceptance of anything different or is this also a growing trend in the more modern communities as well?

Offline Fish Tank

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 402
  • Total likes: 34
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2015, 07:32:26 PM »
All the kids that smoke there every shabbos said they are done smoking on shabbos and will never do it again and now they love yiddishkeit and love Hashem

Offline Fish Tank

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 402
  • Total likes: 34
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2015, 07:33:43 PM »
its going to stop the problem from getting much worse but wont help the kids who are nebuch in pain
"nebuch in pain"?
Sound like some yeshiva  that's clueless.

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 5264
  • Total likes: 493
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2015, 07:33:46 PM »


Is this trend specifically in the more yeshivish/chassidish communities due to the general lack of acceptance of anything different or is this also a growing trend in the more modern communities as well?
that

I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3108
  • Total likes: 250
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #73 on: May 17, 2015, 07:34:05 PM »
I started a wiki.

Offline tjak

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 548
  • Total likes: 25
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #74 on: May 17, 2015, 07:34:24 PM »

Not with wonderful problem solvers like you around
Why not we won't come and make protests, they won't be mechalel shabbos because someone is being nice. What more problems do we have?