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I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Lakewood shabbos DO (singing kah echsof in the park, while smoking electric cigarettes using a shabbos switch

Confirmed:
Grodnoking (Need a shabbos switch for my Ecig, who can bring one?)

Probable:

Impossible:
henche


תניא פרק ל"ב

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג"כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי' הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי' גלות בתוך הרע מס"א הגובר עליה ברשעי' והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ"ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה"עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו' אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר"פ ט"ז דשבת]:

« Last edited by yesitsme on May 21, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »

Author Topic: Lakewood Shabbos rally  (Read 113511 times)

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #380 on: May 19, 2015, 05:31:27 PM »
+1 refuse to give the guy my hit even if he's not saying anything bad this time
That's the way to go.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #381 on: May 19, 2015, 05:56:29 PM »
The fact that they don't like the "frummy" protest.That's not a way to argue-if you have a point say it straight out.
Nobody says MO's aren't Jewish <INSERT HOT TAKE> but many say (that's good. Sounds authoritative without providing any substance. Also good: sayings like "fastest growing")that many of their grandkids won't be <INSERT UNFOUNDED SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT> and if you're aware of the HUGE problems with shabbos in that community you'll understand why. And yes it's way worse than the shabbos issues in the rest of the frum world.<FINISH WITH SCARY FUTURE>

There, a handy template for all your future arguments in any other threads. Don't forget to add your straw man - as you have been doing all thread long - and beat it. Beat it hard.

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Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #382 on: May 19, 2015, 06:03:30 PM »
There, a handy template for all your future arguments in any other threads. Don't forget to add your straw man - as you have been doing all thread long - and beat it. Beat it hard.

Don't thank me, I'm a giver.
Yep. And you and all others arguing with me have been providing authoritative sources. As if something like that is possible in this particular conversation. But good going. I'm curious though-do you actually delude yourself into thinking you have "authoritative sources" or do you realize you don't exactly have that either?

Offline sky121

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #383 on: May 19, 2015, 06:30:51 PM »
I hope you are being sarcastic. This was obviously what was going to happen
I was indeed.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Ergel

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #384 on: May 19, 2015, 07:32:35 PM »
Yep. And you and all others arguing with me have been providing authoritative sources. As if something like that is possible in this particular conversation. But good going. I'm curious though-do you actually delude yourself into thinking you have "authoritative sources" or do you realize you don't exactly have that either?
I'm not sure you understand what a straw man is
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Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #385 on: May 19, 2015, 07:59:25 PM »
I'm not sure you understand what a straw man is
I'm sure you understand that if Fink agrees with you that's the surest way to know you're on the wrong track.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 08:05:34 PM by Aj3042 »

Offline Ergel

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #386 on: May 19, 2015, 08:15:12 PM »
The fact that they don't like the "frummy" protest.
That's fair enough. But if the goal was to bring kedushas shabbos to the lake this is going to have the opposite effect
Quote
That's not a way to argue-if you have a point say it straight out.
I think if you want to leave shmiras shabbos to the MO's you're oblivious to what's going on in the world. Nobody says MO's aren't Jewish but many say that many of their grandkids won't be and if you're aware of the HUGE problems with shabbos in that community you'll understand why. And yes it's way worse than the shabbos issues in the rest of the frum world.
I just don't think people should be painted in such broad strokes. There is a wide spectrum of"MO" just as there is a wide spectrum of"yeshivish"
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #387 on: May 19, 2015, 08:17:09 PM »
I'm sure you understand that if Fink agrees with you that's the surest way to know you're on the wrong track.
way to ignore the post
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #388 on: May 19, 2015, 08:21:56 PM »
You swine. You vulgar little maggot. Don't you know that you are pathetic? You worthless bag of filth. As we say in Texas, I'll bet you couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel. You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you.
You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you. You are a bloody nardless newbie twit protohominid chromosomally aberrant caricature of a coprophagic cloacal parasitic pond scum and I wish you would go away.
You're a putrescence mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon.
You are a bleating fool, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts who sired you and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done.
I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at the very thought of you. You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You are a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. And did I mention you smell?
If you aren't an idiot, you made a world-class effort at simulating one. Try to edit your writing of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly.
You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs.
You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid, nasty and profane. You are foul and disgusting. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. Even sheep won't have sex with you. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot.
And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake?
You are a waste of flesh. You have no rhythm. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are sour and senile. You are a disease, you puerile one-handed slack-jawed drooling meatslapper.
On a good day you're a half-wit. You remind me of drool. You are deficient in all that lends character. You have the personality of wallpaper. You are dank and filthy. You are asinine and benighted. You are the source of all unpleasantness. You spread misery and sorrow wherever you go.
I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while. I don't have enough strength left to deride your ignorant questions and half baked comments about unimportant trivia, or any of the rest of this drivel. Duh.
The only thing worse than your logic is your manners. I have snipped away most of what you wrote, because, well... it didn't really say anything. Your attempt at constructing a creative flame was pitiful. I mean, really, stringing together a bunch of insults among a load of babbling was hardly effective... Maybe later in life, after you have learned to read, write, spell, and count, you will have more success. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us "normal" people take for granted that everyone has an easy time of mastering. But we sometimes forget that there are "challenged" persons in this world who find these things more difficult. If I had known, that this was your case then I would have never read your post. It just wouldn't have been "right". Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you.
P.S.: You are hypocritical, greedy, violent, malevolent, vengeful, cowardly, deadly, mendacious, meretricious, loathsome, despicable, belligerent, opportunistic, barratrous, contemptible, criminal, fascistic, bigoted, racist, sexist, avaricious, tasteless, idiotic, brain-damaged, imbecilic, insane, arrogant, deceitful, demented, lame, self-righteous, Byzantine, conspiratorial, satanic, fraudulent, libelous, bilious, splenetic, spastic, ignorant, clueless, illegitimate, harmful, destructive, dumb, evasive, double-talking, devious, revisionist, narrow, manipulative, paternalistic, fundamentalist, dogmatic, idolatrous, unethical, cultic, diseased, suppressive, controlling, restrictive, malignant, deceptive, dim, crazy, weird, dystopic, stifling, uncaring, plantigrade, grim, unsympathetic, jargon-spouting, censorious, secretive, aggressive, mind-numbing, abrasive, poisonous, flagrant, self-destructive, abusive, socially-retarded, puerile, clueless, and generally Not Good.
"If you fall, I will be there." -Floor

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #389 on: May 19, 2015, 08:25:40 PM »
Haha where'd you get that from?

Online etech0

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #390 on: May 19, 2015, 08:44:49 PM »
Haha where'd you get that from?
I think he overloaded Dan's servers
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #391 on: May 19, 2015, 08:46:43 PM »
I think he overloaded Dan's servers

I figured it would be nice to sum up the conversation :)
"If you fall, I will be there." -Floor

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #392 on: May 19, 2015, 08:48:45 PM »
I figured it would be nice to sum up the conversation :)
Gotta hand it to you it's a good summary.

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #393 on: May 19, 2015, 08:49:41 PM »
Gotta hand it to you it's a good summary.
I thought summaries are supposed to be short...?
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline henche

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #394 on: May 19, 2015, 08:52:33 PM »
You swine. You vulgar little maggot. Don't you know that you are pathetic? You worthless bag of filth. As we say in Texas, I'll bet you couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel. You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you.
You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you. You are a bloody nardless newbie twit protohominid chromosomally aberrant caricature of a coprophagic cloacal parasitic pond scum and I wish you would go away.
You're a putrescence mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon.
You are a bleating fool, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts who sired you and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done.
I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at the very thought of you. You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You are a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. And did I mention you smell?
If you aren't an idiot, you made a world-class effort at simulating one. Try to edit your writing of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly.
You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs.
You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid, nasty and profane. You are foul and disgusting. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. Even sheep won't have sex with you. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot.
And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake?
You are a waste of flesh. You have no rhythm. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are sour and senile. You are a disease, you puerile one-handed slack-jawed drooling meatslapper.
On a good day you're a half-wit. You remind me of drool. You are deficient in all that lends character. You have the personality of wallpaper. You are dank and filthy. You are asinine and benighted. You are the source of all unpleasantness. You spread misery and sorrow wherever you go.
I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while. I don't have enough strength left to deride your ignorant questions and half baked comments about unimportant trivia, or any of the rest of this drivel. Duh.
The only thing worse than your logic is your manners. I have snipped away most of what you wrote, because, well... it didn't really say anything. Your attempt at constructing a creative flame was pitiful. I mean, really, stringing together a bunch of insults among a load of babbling was hardly effective... Maybe later in life, after you have learned to read, write, spell, and count, you will have more success. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us "normal" people take for granted that everyone has an easy time of mastering. But we sometimes forget that there are "challenged" persons in this world who find these things more difficult. If I had known, that this was your case then I would have never read your post. It just wouldn't have been "right". Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you.
P.S.: You are hypocritical, greedy, violent, malevolent, vengeful, cowardly, deadly, mendacious, meretricious, loathsome, despicable, belligerent, opportunistic, barratrous, contemptible, criminal, fascistic, bigoted, racist, sexist, avaricious, tasteless, idiotic, brain-damaged, imbecilic, insane, arrogant, deceitful, demented, lame, self-righteous, Byzantine, conspiratorial, satanic, fraudulent, libelous, bilious, splenetic, spastic, ignorant, clueless, illegitimate, harmful, destructive, dumb, evasive, double-talking, devious, revisionist, narrow, manipulative, paternalistic, fundamentalist, dogmatic, idolatrous, unethical, cultic, diseased, suppressive, controlling, restrictive, malignant, deceptive, dim, crazy, weird, dystopic, stifling, uncaring, plantigrade, grim, unsympathetic, jargon-spouting, censorious, secretive, aggressive, mind-numbing, abrasive, poisonous, flagrant, self-destructive, abusive, socially-retarded, puerile, clueless, and generally Not Good.



Haha where'd you get that from?
GIYF http://www.ultimateflame.com/

Offline henche

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #395 on: May 19, 2015, 08:53:31 PM »
I'm sure you understand that if Fink agrees with you that's the surest way to know you're on the wrong track.

+1

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #396 on: May 19, 2015, 09:33:18 PM »
wiki updated.

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #397 on: May 19, 2015, 09:39:19 PM »
wiki updated.
Saved that for future reference
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Offline elit

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #398 on: May 19, 2015, 09:44:34 PM »
How do you post a video from the Facebook app

Offline Ergel

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #399 on: May 19, 2015, 09:58:52 PM »
I'm sure you understand that if Fink agrees with you that's the surest way to know you're on the wrong track.
I can't believe I missed the irony in this post the first time.  You responded to someone telling you that you don't understand what a straw man argument is with a straw man argument
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.