Lakewood Shabbos rally

[PTU]

Upon further review it looks like this machoh is against the minhag brought in the Ramo in 334.
While there are mitigating circumstances in this case, it would be up to daas Torah to make the decision.

I am unqualified to pass any judgment (and so are all of you )

[Achas Veachas]

Upon further review it looks like this machoh is against the minhag brought in the Ramo in 334.
While there are mitigating circumstances in this case, it would be up to daas Torah to make the decision.

I am unqualified to pass any judgment (and so are all of you )

So you have trouble reading Hebrew as well? The Ramo is talking about wasting money on a Machaah...

[PTU]

So you have trouble reading Hebrew as well? The Ramo is talking about wasting money on a Machaah...

Read the last words again.
Repeat till u get it.

[Menachem613]

Upon further review it looks like this machoh is against the minhag brought in the Ramo in 334.
While there are mitigating circumstances in this case, it would be up to daas Torah to make the decision.

I am unqualified to pass any judgment (and so are all of you )

How do you know we aren't Daas Torah?

[Achas Veachas]

Read the last words again.
Repeat till u get it.

So you are worried that these kids will be עומדין על גופינו ומאודנו?

[PTU]

So you are worried that these kids will be עומדין על גופינו ומאודנו?

Yes. They have threatened such. Plus the addition OTD adult maniacs who are definitely choshud on retzicha...

[Achas Veachas]

Upon further review it looks like this machoh is against the minhag brought in the Ramo in 334.
While there are mitigating circumstances in this case, it would be up to daas Torah to make the decision.

I am unqualified to pass any judgment (and so are all of you )

Regardless it is against what the Ba'al Hatanya says in chapter 32 of Tanya:

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

[Name Changed]

I didnt read thru this whole tread... Will catch up later, its 50 pages now...

I just want to share what I have heard from one of the Lakewood Rosh Yeshivos.

There are 2 things, firstly when something like this happens in our community we have to be מחזק our own Shabbos.
Secondly, we are not responsible to be מקרב someone that is purposely trying not to be frum ect... The reason why Rabonim went down to the lake is to show the community that חלל שבת is not acceptable, and this is how they stood up for it. We have to show our children that Shabbos is not קל and such things are not acceptable. If these people go further off the derech that is the cost of demonstrating the קדושה of Shabbos to out children.

This is what I heard, I am not sure 100% if this is what was said but just sharing...

[Baruch]

Quote from: Baruch on Today at 01:41:33 AM
@Shmelly, what's your take on the Shabbos protest?

Quote from: Shmelly on Yesterday at 05:58:45 PM
Please stop PM'ing me, I'm a perfectly well adjusted frum adult now and don't need you to be mekarev me to My god.

I want to know his take, as someone who can understand these teens.

[rileywiles23]

Yes. They have threatened such. Plus the addition OTD adult maniacs who are definitely choshud on retzicha...

Your either dumb as a doorknob, or just some yeshivish hocker, who says things just for the heck of it.

[Shmelly]

@Shmelly, what's your take on the Shabbos protest?

I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

[yitrap]

I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

So here we have it folks. Hard to argue given that what he's saying is common sense as well.

[aygart]

+1, but he hears both sides and you seem not to.

[yitrap]

+1, but he hears both sides and you seem not to.

I understand what they were trying to do I think they did it the wrong way I'm not denying you may be able to get to get success this way (regardless if they were doing this to defend shabbos or to get them to move) but like my example with the hand hurting...

People seem to be thinking that things aren't working and I can't tell you how wrong that idea is, we're not holding anywhere near "the last resort" -C"V if the day comes and for some reason we actually need to "cut off the limb" although I doubt it ever will I still hope it looks nothing like that protest did.

[somefield]

I understand what they were trying to do I think they did it the wrong way I'm not denying you may be able to get to get success this way (regardless if they were doing this to defend shabbos or to get them to move) but like my example with the hand hurting...

People seem to be thinking that things aren't working and I can't tell you how wrong that idea is, we're not holding anywhere near "the last resort" -C"V if the day comes and for some reason we actually need to "cut off the limb" although I doubt it ever will I still hope it looks nothing like that protest did.

I'm afraid that unfortunately as long as this mentality exist,

Yes. They have threatened such. Plus the addition OTD adult maniacs who are definitely choshud on retzicha...

you will have counter productive protests that do more harm than good.

[Aj3042]

It seems like I'm the year 2015 kabalas Hatorah has happened again and a new mitzvah has come to trump all others-that of kiruv rechokim. Until now it hasn't been mentioned that much-not much in the Torah, Mishna, Gemara or Rishonim (a little, not a great focus). Even the late Achronim like the chafetz chaim in his battles for shemiras shabbos and taharas hamishpacha, and in others' battles against the reform movement, the idea of "further ostracizing" OTD people didn't take center stage to keeping ourselves strong and upholding the word of Hashem.
But today, there's one mitzvah above all else-kiruv rechokim. As soon as that comes into play nothing else matters-though where such an idea comes from I have absolutely no idea. I must've slept late for that kabalas Hatorah too when this new super mitzvah was announced.

[Dan]

It seems like I'm the year 2015 kabalas Hatorah has happened again and a new mitzvah has come to trump all others-that of kiruv rechokim. Until now it hasn't been mentioned that much-not much in the Torah, Mishna, Gemara or Rishonim (a little, not a great focus). Even the late Achronim like the chafetz chaim in his battles for shemiras shabbos and taharas hamishpacha, and in others' battles against the reform movement, the idea of "further ostracizing" OTD people didn't take center stage to keeping ourselves strong and upholding the word of Hashem.
But today, there's one mitzvah above all else-kiruv rechokim. As soon as that comes into play nothing else matters-though where such an idea comes from I have absolutely no idea. I must've slept late for that kabalas Hatorah too when this new super mitzvah was announced.

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

[Achas Veachas]

It seems like I'm the year 2015 kabalas Hatorah has happened again and a new mitzvah has come to trump all others-that of kiruv rechokim. Until now it hasn't been mentioned that much-not much in the Torah, Mishna, Gemara or Rishonim (a little, not a great focus). Even the late Achronim like the chafetz chaim in his battles for shemiras shabbos and taharas hamishpacha, and in others' battles against the reform movement, the idea of "further ostracizing" OTD people didn't take center stage to keeping ourselves strong and upholding the word of Hashem.
But today, there's one mitzvah above all else-kiruv rechokim. As soon as that comes into play nothing else matters-though where such an idea comes from I have absolutely no idea. I must've slept late for that kabalas Hatorah too when this new super mitzvah was announced.

a) Pikuach Nefesh always superseded the whole Torah.

b) You can't equate the Haskalah movement and the Reform movement from the days of the Tzemach Tzedek and the Baaley Taavah of today...

[yitrap]

It seems like I'm the year 2015 kabalas Hatorah has happened again and a new mitzvah has come to trump all others-that of kiruv rechokim. Until now it hasn't been mentioned that much-not much in the Torah, Mishna, Gemara or Rishonim (a little, not a great focus). Even the late Achronim like the chafetz chaim in his battles for shemiras shabbos and taharas hamishpacha, and in others' battles against the reform movement, the idea of "further ostracizing" OTD people didn't take center stage to keeping ourselves strong and upholding the word of Hashem.
But today, there's one mitzvah above all else-kiruv rechokim. As soon as that comes into play nothing else matters-though where such an idea comes from I have absolutely no idea. I must've slept late for that kabalas Hatorah too when this new super mitzvah was announced.

You're not dealing with a movement here, you are dealing with kids that for the most (please don't fight me on this now I'm not in the mood) part had a harsh upbringing of some sort that were hurt along the way, others were never taught how to appreciate the incredibleness of yiddishkiet and some are just curious curious kids.

I'll say this again, if this was about teaching our own children about loving shabbos or kovod shabbos there are much better ways, if it was about trying to help these children there are definitely better ways, if it was to get them to move there are not just better ways but ways that will actually work.

What exactly are you defending here keeping strong and upholding the word of hashem? by doing what? what was the gain? 

[Aj3042]

Seriously-what's your point-you found one person who said kiruv is a good thing? People way before the baal hatanya said it. How does that negate what I said that "it hasn't been mentioned that much-not much in the Torah, Mishna, Gemara or Rishonim (a little, not a great focus)". You just showed me one place (and not even the most authoritative one you couldn't brought in). Nobody says kiruv is wrong but if it comes at the expense of other mitzvos it's a separate discussion.

How about you show me in shulchan aruch where it says that if someone is mechlel shabbos you can still count him to a minyan because not doing so would further alienate him? Or do you see that that point is irrelevant when it comes to halalcha?