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I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Lakewood shabbos DO (singing kah echsof in the park, while smoking electric cigarettes using a shabbos switch

Confirmed:
Grodnoking (Need a shabbos switch for my Ecig, who can bring one?)

Probable:

Impossible:
henche


תניא פרק ל"ב

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג"כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי' הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי' גלות בתוך הרע מס"א הגובר עליה ברשעי' והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ"ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה"עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו' אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר"פ ט"ז דשבת]:

« Last edited by yesitsme on May 21, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »

Author Topic: Lakewood Shabbos rally  (Read 150466 times)

Offline Cowboysuk

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #880 on: May 22, 2015, 05:45:48 PM »
btw a straw man argument is when you invent reasons for your opponents position and then proceed to show why those reasons are wrong  Just thought i'd clarify that since 90% of the times the term "straw man argument" was used in this thread it was misused.

Offline Dan

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #881 on: May 22, 2015, 05:50:27 PM »
False.
It's when you invent/exaggerate someone else's actual stated position. And then proceed to attack a position they don't actually believe in.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Cowboysuk

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #882 on: May 22, 2015, 05:57:32 PM »
False.
It's when you invent/exaggerate someone else's actual stated position. And then proceed to attack a position they don't actually believe in.
Youre right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #883 on: May 22, 2015, 06:29:11 PM »
False.
It's when you invent/exaggerate someone else's actual stated position. And then proceed to attack a position they don't actually believe in.
Like you always do right?

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #884 on: May 22, 2015, 07:28:03 PM »
Just couldn't let an hour pass without a comment here.
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline thaber

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #885 on: May 22, 2015, 08:30:17 PM »
happy to continue it. at least for this hour.
this can be the new forum game.

Offline ayidlmitafiddl

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #886 on: May 25, 2015, 04:49:59 PM »
There's at least one good reason for the protest which I don't think has been covered here as of yet.

and here it is:

You and I, ALL of us here, are now hearing about the OTD issue and the different angles of what is a good idea and what is not; it gives us more feelings for the kids and how we might be able to help; and it brings us an awareness, especially for those of us who are parents of children ourselves, to try our best to communicate the warm, delicious, fuzzy feelings of shabbos, kedusha, etc. and perhaps spend more time with our children to make our hishtadlus that B'H, our own kids stay on the right side of the fence of yiddishkeit...

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #887 on: May 25, 2015, 05:23:36 PM »

There's at least one good reason for the protest which I don't think has been covered here as of yet.

and here it is:

You and I, ALL of us here, are now hearing about the OTD issue and the different angles of what is a good idea and what is not; it gives us more feelings for the kids and how we might be able to help; and it brings us an awareness, especially for those of us who are parents of children ourselves, to try our best to communicate the warm, delicious, fuzzy feelings of shabbos, kedusha, etc. and perhaps spend more time with our children to make our hishtadlus that B'H, our own kids stay on the right side of the fence of yiddishkeit...
That's a positive outcome after the fact, not a good reason for it...

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #888 on: May 25, 2015, 09:37:52 PM »
Bunch of these kids destroyed half a bridge last night. Tore down the walls.

Madison and central
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 10:44:46 PM by grodnoking »
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Offline yakrot

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #889 on: May 25, 2015, 09:41:59 PM »
Where?

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #890 on: May 25, 2015, 10:03:32 PM »
Bunch of these kids destroyed half a bridge last night. Tore down the walls.
I'm sure because they've been traumatized by these protests. Has nothing to do with them at all it's all the fault of those frummies [insert sarcasm here].

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #891 on: May 25, 2015, 10:55:04 PM »
Bunch of these kids destroyed half a bridge last night. Tore down the walls.

Madison and central
Now seeing foot patrol on the lake. Is that regular?
Eta: definitely not. They are doing searches of people who are sitting around on the path.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 11:00:42 PM by grodnoking »
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Offline thaber

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #892 on: May 26, 2015, 01:37:40 AM »
I'm sure because they've been traumatized by these protests. Has nothing to do with them at all it's all the fault of those frummies [insert sarcasm here].
Are you sure there's no link? after all, they've been hanging out at the lake for years with no one bothering them and thye didn't destroy any property. Right after the protests start they start destroying property. Do you think there's no connection?

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #893 on: May 26, 2015, 01:43:46 AM »
Are you sure there's no link? after all, they've been hanging out at the lake for years with no one bothering them and thye didn't destroy any property. Right after the protests start they start destroying property. Do you think there's no connection?
Prob a connection. They want attention. There was no rally this week so they must have been bored.
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Offline yakrot

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #894 on: May 26, 2015, 03:36:15 PM »

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #895 on: May 26, 2015, 03:41:26 PM »

But haven't we tried the loving and understanding method already?

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #896 on: May 26, 2015, 03:44:38 PM »
But haven't we tried the loving and understanding method already?
apparently someone is hoping to develop something new. Either way, Aaron Kotler is not the prime source for these things.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #897 on: May 26, 2015, 03:47:33 PM »
But haven't we tried the loving and understanding method already?
No. Welcome to Lakewood. If your OTD in lakewood major LSD (Lakewood Starring Disorder) sets in. People make sure not to go near them. Thou there are a few people who spend hours each week trying to help them with love, the amount of kids otd is too much for those few.
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #898 on: May 26, 2015, 03:51:15 PM »
No. Welcome to Lakewood. If your OTD in lakewood major LSD (Lakewood Starring Disorder) sets in. People make sure not to go near them. Thou there are a few people who spend hours each week trying to help them with love, the amount of kids otd is too much for those few.
He was being sarcastic.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #899 on: May 26, 2015, 03:53:53 PM »
No. Welcome to Lakewood. If your OTD in lakewood major LSD (Lakewood Starring Disorder) sets in. People make sure not to go near them. Thou there are a few people who spend hours each week trying to help them with love, the amount of kids otd is too much for those few.
This guy disagrees with you...