Author Topic: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)  (Read 402621 times)

Offline yochiek93

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #140 on: June 08, 2015, 05:07:58 AM »
What should be the issur? The producers dont own the cd once you buy it. And as for infringing on someones parnassa maybe they should find a parnassa thats not contingent on people not doing what they're allowed to do.
-1
your not allowed to open a store on the same block if the same store is open already it takes away his business so to your taking away his business

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #141 on: June 08, 2015, 06:49:19 AM »
What should be the issur? The producers dont own the cd once you buy it. And as for infringing on someones parnassa maybe they should find a parnassa thats not contingent on people not doing what they're allowed to do.
I once heard a Shiur from R' Leibel Williger in which he went through 8 (EIGHT!) potential Issurim that are possible (granted that some of them are only Assur according to a Daas Yochid).

Basically, there is lots of Lomdus involved, and (at least IMO) we should leave the reasoning to the Poskim.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #142 on: June 08, 2015, 09:38:39 AM »
What should be the issur? The producers dont own the cd once you buy it.

I guess the whole concept of intellectual property is lost on you. Is it the mention of intellect that gets you?  :P

In all seriousness, I will dignify your question with a response. Have you ever had a photo shoot? Got something designed, written or drawn? Do you know anyone who does those things for a living? Tell them you are copying their work, and you'll likely get a more impassioned, erudite  response.

The same way a photographer owns the photos he takes, even if they are of you(!), the singer/artist owns the material they produced. Radio stations are charged a royalty fee to play the song and consumers are permitted limitless enjoyment through purchase of the CD. But the artist still owns the "intellectual property" of the material, even if the physical CD is yours.

As to whether intellectual property exists in halacha, that is the primary question (although, as YitzyS mentions, there are other issues at play, too). The vast majority consider this to be included in dina d'malchusa dina, in which international copyright laws prohibit the unauthorized copying of intellectual property. Additionally, whether or not Halacha explicitly states it is theft or not, there are many things which simply do not pass the smell test, and are so blatantly wrong there isn't even a shailah to be asked. (You want to get into the sugya? Knock yourself out. But in terms of practical application? Justifications are absurd). Which brings us to:

And as for infringing on someones parnassa maybe they should find a parnassa thats not contingent on people not doing what they're allowed to do.
I'll leave it at
Wow.
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Offline Zkpncs48

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #143 on: June 08, 2015, 09:10:17 PM »
-1
your not allowed to open a store on the same block if the same store is open already it takes away his business so to your taking away his business
Just to clarify my argument I wasn't saying there can't be an an issur to infringe on someones parnassa, I was just saying that just because you are affecting someones parnassa doesn't make it automatically assur.
For example (and Im not saying its an exact comparison so dont attack) if someone made a living selling baseball stats and now the all the info is readily available for free online there wont be an issur to look up baseball stats on the internet because you're affecting his parnassa! He should go find another line of work.

Offline Zkpncs48

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #144 on: June 08, 2015, 09:30:41 PM »
Wow.
Now, there's a well thought out, articulate argument.

Offline yitzy93

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #145 on: June 08, 2015, 09:41:43 PM »
Can we get this thread back on topic again?? We can discuss halacha in the "halacha thread..."

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #146 on: June 08, 2015, 09:50:35 PM »
Can we get this thread back on topic again?? We can discuss halacha in the "halacha thread..."
The Lipa single is horrendous.

Better?
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Offline yitrap

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #147 on: June 08, 2015, 09:55:31 PM »
Just to clarify my argument I wasn't saying there can't be an an issur to infringe on someones parnassa, I was just saying that just because you are affecting someones parnassa doesn't make it automatically assur.
For example (and Im not saying its an exact comparison so dont attack) if someone made a living selling baseball stats and now the all the info is readily available for free online there wont be an issur to look up baseball stats on the internet because you're affecting his parnassa! He should go find another line of work.
I'm gonna attack the comparison, if you took his stats that he worked hard to compile and put it online...that would be the same thing.
Do you not think this is a case of Zeh Nehne ve'zeh choser?

Offline yitzy93

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #148 on: June 08, 2015, 10:02:26 PM »
The Lipa single is horrendous.

Better?
Lol. Yes it is horrendous ;D

Offline PTU

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Offline Zkpncs48

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #150 on: June 08, 2015, 10:04:50 PM »
I'm gonna attack the comparison, if you took his stats that he worked hard to compile and put it online...that would be the same thing.
Do you not think this is a case of Zeh Nehne ve'zeh choser?
zeh nehne v'zeh chaser is only when the item in question has an owner. The example in the gemara is if you have a house that is for rent and someone stays there thereby causing the owner the loss of rent. As opposed to ze nehne v'ze lo chaser when the house isn't meant  for rent. bava kama 20a-b.
And yes, the new Lipa single is terrible! Btw anyone know who is on the cover with him?

Offline yitrap

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #151 on: June 08, 2015, 10:13:05 PM »
zeh nehne v'zeh chaser is only when the item in question has an owner. The example in the gemara is if you have a house that is for rent and someone stays there thereby causing the owner the loss of rent. As opposed to ze nehne v'ze lo chaser when the house isn't meant  for rent. bava kama 20a-b.
I'm aware, I happen to think that there is an owner, definitely on the time spent if not the intellectual property 
 
in all seriousness, I will dignify your question with a response. Have you ever had a photo shoot? Got something designed, written or drawn? Do you know anyone who does those things for a living? Tell them you are copying their work, and you'll likely get a more impassioned, erudite  response.

The same way a photographer owns the photos he takes, even if they are of you(!), the singer/artist owns the material they produced. Radio stations are charged a royalty fee to play the song and consumers are permitted limitless enjoyment through purchase of the CD. But the artist still owns the "intellectual property" of the material, even if the physical CD is yours.

As to whether intellectual property exists in halacha, that is the primary question (although, as YitzyS mentions, there are other issues at play, too). The vast majority consider this to be included in dina d'malchusa dina, in which international copyright laws prohibit the unauthorized copying of intellectual property. Additionally, whether or not Halacha explicitly states it is theft or not, there are many things which simply do not pass the smell test, and are so blatantly wrong there isn't even a shailah to be asked.

Offline Zkpncs48

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #152 on: June 08, 2015, 10:23:10 PM »
I'm aware, I happen to think that there is an owner, definitely on the time spent if not the intellectual property
Huh? time spent? Noone's forcing anyone to do anything with his time so theft of time is irrelevant. As for intellectual property is that actual property or just a way of referring to copyright laws?


Offline yitrap

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #153 on: June 08, 2015, 10:25:04 PM »
Huh? time spent? Noone's forcing anyone to do anything with his time so theft of time is irrelevant. As for intellectual property is that actual property or just a way of referring to copyright laws?
no one is forcing you to sleep but if I wake you up its still gezel shayna, no offence but that logic is horrible.
I don't understand the second part

Offline Zkpncs48

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #154 on: June 08, 2015, 10:31:00 PM »
no one is forcing you to sleep but if I wake you up its still gezel shayna, no offence but that logic is horrible.
I don't understand the second part
What does stealing sleep (if such a thing exists) have to do with stealing time?? Stealing time is a real thing that takes place if someone locks someone up thereby  causing him to lose wages.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #155 on: June 08, 2015, 10:49:58 PM »
The Lipa single is horrendous.

Better?
If you want to veer the topic away from intellectual theft, Lipa's single is the wrong way to go. The only reason why Lipa released his single now (instead of releasing it on his soon to be released CD) is because a different artist, seeing a YouTube clip of Lipa singing the song at a Chasuna, went and produced it himself (thinking that it was already public). Lipa put out the single now to try to "reclaim" his song! Talk about intellectual theft! (And now for another 3 pages of posts about if THIS type of intellectual theft is Mutter and ethical...  :( )

Offline Tankchucker

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #156 on: June 09, 2015, 02:05:00 AM »

If you want to veer the topic away from intellectual theft, Lipa's single is the wrong way to go. The only reason why Lipa released his single now (instead of releasing it on his soon to be released CD) is because a different artist, seeing a YouTube clip of Lipa singing the song at a Chasuna, went and produced it himself (thinking that it was already public). Lipa put out the single now to try to "reclaim" his song! Talk about intellectual theft! (And now for another 3 pages of posts about if THIS type of intellectual theft is Mutter and ethical...  :( )
Imho either the joke is on the artist that ripped the song or lipa deserved to have it knocked off him because he did such a horrible job at presenting this song. I listened to it once and don't see how anybody sober can enjoy it.

Offline clear thinker

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #157 on: June 09, 2015, 09:17:07 AM »
Imho either the joke is on the artist that ripped the song or lipa deserved to have it knocked off him because he did such a horrible job at presenting this song. I listened to it once and don't see how anybody sober can enjoy it.
+100!
It's really horrible!

Offline Baruch

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #158 on: June 09, 2015, 09:39:07 AM »
It is horrible both musically and for your neshama, since when is disco and rap Jewish music?


Offline YitzyS

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Re: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions)
« Reply #159 on: June 09, 2015, 09:48:47 AM »
Imho either the joke is on the artist that ripped the song or lipa deserved to have it knocked off him because he did such a horrible job at presenting this song. I listened to it once and don't see how anybody sober can enjoy it.
He did rush it to get it out as soon as possible. Maybe that contributed to the quality.