Author Topic: Jewish Music (New CDs, hock, and opinions) (Read 831060 times)

AsherO · « **Reply #4120 on:** September 11, 2022, 09:19:43 AM »

Quote from: TheAsh on September 11, 2022, 08:57:35 AM

It is an original.
It's currently creating an uproar in Israel. The comments on kikar shabbos are very disgusted by it, and many Jewish music sites are banning it and discussion of it.

I’m not sure censorship is the solution. As long as it doesn’t go viral it can die organically on its own merits (lack thereof actually). It’s cringeworthy to think people looking for Jewish music can be drawn to that.

TheAsh · « **Reply #4121 on:** September 11, 2022, 09:35:49 AM »

Quote from: AsherO on September 11, 2022, 09:19:43 AM

I’m not sure censorship is the solution. As long as it doesn’t go viral it can die organically on its own merits (lack thereof actually). It’s cringeworthy to think people looking for Jewish music can be drawn to that.

He is (was?) a very popular artist and music video creator in Israel, so it automatically has reach. Think of it as Mordechai Shapiro making such a video. It will receive publicity regardless.

He's released controversial music before, but this is his worst.

AsherO · « **Reply #4122 on:** September 11, 2022, 10:09:47 AM »

Quote from: TheAsh on September 11, 2022, 09:35:49 AM

He is (was?) a very popular artist and music video creator in Israel, so it automatically has reach. Think of it as Mordechai Shapiro making such a video. It will receive publicity regardless.

He's released controversial music before, but this is his worst.

This is outright trashy

Sam 77 · « **Reply #4123 on:** September 11, 2022, 10:18:42 AM »

Quote from: AsherO on September 11, 2022, 10:09:47 AM

This is outright trashy

Is this your first time watching a sruli broncher music video? This is straight up his alley wasn't surprised one bit.

Yehuda57 · « **Reply #4124 on:** September 11, 2022, 11:19:24 AM »

This is such a weird discussion. This is not a "Jewish music" low, it's an individual performer who you can not listen to. I would never have seen this video had it not been shared here, as it is I only saw 20 seconds or so before I realized it's not my scene. So we are expressing outrage at a video by giving it a larger audience? Seems smart.

There is no "Jewish music" beis din with rules and regulations. There are individuals who produce music and individuals who can choose what they wish to consume. Don't like it, don't buy it. If his target is frum Jews and frum Jews don't want it, the market will dictate that he stop. Just like if Mordechai Shapiro (to use your example) put out something objectionable he'd lose customers.

If a specific school/group/sect wished to set rules and guidelines, that's one thing. But if there is some supposed red line crossed here, who is in charge of Jewish Music™ to punish the producer?

On the Headlines podcast, Menachem Tocker was speaking about how he includes all kinds of music to appeal to everyone, but then said he won't play Hanan Ben Ari. Now, I don't know what the reason for that is. Maybe it's legit, maybe it's political, I have literally no idea. But Chalom Kmo Yosef are arguably the most meaningful Jewish song lyrics of any song in 50 years. So this is a new low for Jewish Music™ but Cholem Kmo Yosef isn't even a Jewish Music™ song? Who decides?

Outrage at a performer is just abdicating personal responsibility for what we choose to consume. We don't have to be responsible to set boundaries and filter our music. We can just listen to anything that is Jewish Music™ and we're good. But now something was served to us which is blatantly against our values and suddenly we get mad because we have to actively filter? The need to filter has been there all along, we've just been too oblivious or lazy to see our own standards erode.

AsherO · « **Reply #4125 on:** September 11, 2022, 12:15:06 PM »

Quote from: Yehuda57 on September 11, 2022, 11:19:24 AM

This is such a weird discussion. This is not a "Jewish music" low, it's an individual performer who you can not listen to. I would never have seen this video had it not been shared here, as it is I only saw 20 seconds or so before I realized it's not my scene. So we are expressing outrage at a video by giving it a larger audience? Seems smart.

There is no "Jewish music" beis din with rules and regulations. There are individuals who produce music and individuals who can choose what they wish to consume. Don't like it, don't buy it. If his target is frum Jews and frum Jews don't want it, the market will dictate that he stop. Just like if Mordechai Shapiro (to use your example) put out something objectionable he'd lose customers.

If a specific school/group/sect wished to set rules and guidelines, that's one thing. But if there is some supposed red line crossed here, who is in charge of Jewish Music™ to punish the producer?

On the Headlines podcast, Menachem Tocker was speaking about how he includes all kinds of music to appeal to everyone, but then said he won't play Hanan Ben Ari. Now, I don't know what the reason for that is. Maybe it's legit, maybe it's political, I have literally no idea. But Chalom Kmo Yosef are arguably the most meaningful Jewish song lyrics of any song in 50 years. So this is a new low for Jewish Music™ but Cholem Kmo Yosef isn't even a Jewish Music™ song? Who decides?

Outrage at a performer is just abdicating personal responsibility for what we choose to consume. We don't have to be responsible to set boundaries and filter our music. We can just listen to anything that is Jewish Music™ and we're good. But now something was served to us which is blatantly against our values and suddenly we get mad because we have to actively filter? The need to filter has been there all along, we've just been too oblivious or lazy to see our own standards erode.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but:
1. The concern might be that some frum people could be drawn to music like this and promoting it gives such artists/genres/styles a voice that could develop a following. Do we want to normalize such things?
2. Can’t compare the Jewishness of חלום כמו יוסף’s lyrics to למה לא’s. I’m not the aribiter but objectively speaking you think they’re equal in this regard? I don’t either know who decides, but just because there isn’t a standard doesn’t mean the those two are comparable.

TheAsh · « **Reply #4126 on:** September 11, 2022, 12:25:55 PM »

Quote from: Yehuda57 on September 11, 2022, 11:19:24 AM

This is such a weird discussion. This is not a "Jewish music" low, it's an individual performer who you can not listen to. I would never have seen this video had it not been shared here, as it is I only saw 20 seconds or so before I realized it's not my scene. So we are expressing outrage at a video by giving it a larger audience? Seems smart.

There is no "Jewish music" beis din with rules and regulations. There are individuals who produce music and individuals who can choose what they wish to consume. Don't like it, don't buy it. If his target is frum Jews and frum Jews don't want it, the market will dictate that he stop. Just like if Mordechai Shapiro (to use your example) put out something objectionable he'd lose customers.

If a specific school/group/sect wished to set rules and guidelines, that's one thing. But if there is some supposed red line crossed here, who is in charge of Jewish Music™ to punish the producer?

On the Headlines podcast, Menachem Tocker was speaking about how he includes all kinds of music to appeal to everyone, but then said he won't play Hanan Ben Ari. Now, I don't know what the reason for that is. Maybe it's legit, maybe it's political, I have literally no idea. But Chalom Kmo Yosef are arguably the most meaningful Jewish song lyrics of any song in 50 years. So this is a new low for Jewish Music™ but Cholem Kmo Yosef isn't even a Jewish Music™ song? Who decides?

Outrage at a performer is just abdicating personal responsibility for what we choose to consume. We don't have to be responsible to set boundaries and filter our music. We can just listen to anything that is Jewish Music™ and we're good. But now something was served to us which is blatantly against our values and suddenly we get mad because we have to actively filter? The need to filter has been there all along, we've just been too oblivious or lazy to see our own standards erode.

This is a performer who was considered well in the mainstream of Jewish music, and is constantly used to this day to arrange and produce songs for many artists.

I'm not sure what is wrong with Cholem Kemo Yosef, I love that song. This song, in contrast has no Jewish values whatsoever, shows recreational drinking, and is still considered "in the mainstream". Yes, it is a new low for Jewish music. Matisyahu's Miracle video, which was shocking despite him supposedly being frum then, in my opinion was better than this.

To compare, when Yaniv Ben Mashiach released his Rosh Baananim, which also featured drinking (and was far better value-wise than this song), it provoked an outcry, Kikar Shabbos wrote a whole article slamming it, he was banned from many chareidi radio stations, and lost his manager. In contrast, this video was uploaded to many chareidi sites and telegram channels without comment. Sruli Broncher is allowed on Toker.

TheAsh · « **Reply #4127 on:** September 11, 2022, 12:36:54 PM »

Quote from: Sam 77 on September 11, 2022, 10:18:42 AM

Is this your first time watching a sruli broncher music video? This is straight up his alley wasn't surprised one bit.

Did the video style surprise me? no.

The content and words?
Very much so.

zh cohen · « **Reply #4128 on:** September 11, 2022, 12:50:13 PM »

Quote from: Yehuda57 on September 11, 2022, 11:19:24 AM

There is no "Jewish music" beis din with rules and regulations. There are individuals who produce music and individuals who can choose what they wish to consume. Don't like it, don't buy it. If his target is frum Jews and frum Jews don't want it, the market will dictate that he stop. Just like if Mordechai Shapiro (to use your example) put out something objectionable he'd lose customers.

If a specific school/group/sect wished to set rules and guidelines, that's one thing. But if there is some supposed red line crossed here, who is in charge of Jewish Music™ to punish the producer?

On the Headlines podcast, Menachem Tocker was speaking about how he includes all kinds of music to appeal to everyone, but then said he won't play Hanan Ben Ari. Now, I don't know what the reason for that is. Maybe it's legit, maybe it's political, I have literally no idea. But Chalom Kmo Yosef are arguably the most meaningful Jewish song lyrics of any song in 50 years. So this is a new low for Jewish Music™ but Cholem Kmo Yosef isn't even a Jewish Music™ song? Who decides?

Outrage at a performer is just abdicating personal responsibility for what we choose to consume. We don't have to be responsible to set boundaries and filter our music. We can just listen to anything that is Jewish Music™ and we're good. But now something was served to us which is blatantly against our values and suddenly we get mad because we have to actively filter? The need to filter has been there all along, we've just been too oblivious or lazy to see our own standards erode.

1 - If there is anyone that needs to have a definition of "Jewish Music" it would be someone who has a "Jewish Music" radio show.

You are free to disagree with his definition, but to challenge his right to have one seems funny to me.

2 - Did Toker explain why he doesn't consider Hanan Ben Ari "Jewish Music"? I know even less than you do, but I think it is reasonable to assume that he had some reason (unless you know otherwise).

3 - Your point about personal responsibility sets aside the fact that communities/schools/parents have a responsibly to set guidelines for those who are not yet ready to make that determination for themselves.

I don't think it is practical to ask parents to approve each song individually. A definition of "Jewish Music" is a helpful tool in explaining a standard without having to do so.

4 - There will always be debate about what fits under the label of "Jewish Music" and what doesn't. This type of debate takes place within every genre of music. I am not sure why you seem to be opposed to such debate when in comes to "Jewish Music"

Yehuda57 · « **Reply #4129 on:** September 11, 2022, 08:38:54 PM »

Quote from: zh cohen on September 11, 2022, 12:50:13 PM

1 - If there is anyone that needs to have a definition of "Jewish Music" it would be someone who has a "Jewish Music" radio show.

You are free to disagree with his definition, but to challenge his right to have one seems funny to me.

2 - Did Toker explain why he doesn't consider Hanan Ben Ari "Jewish Music"? I know even less than you do, but I think it is reasonable to assume that he had some reason (unless you know otherwise).

3 - Your point about personal responsibility sets aside the fact that communities/schools/parents have a responsibly to set guidelines for those who are not yet ready to make that determination for themselves.

I don't think it is practical to ask parents to approve each song individually. A definition of "Jewish Music" is a helpful tool in explaining a standard without having to do so.

4 - There will always be debate about what fits under the label of "Jewish Music" and what doesn't. This type of debate takes place within every genre of music. I am not sure why you seem to be opposed to such debate when in comes to "Jewish Music"

1) agreed. He has every right to draw lines, as I wrote about schools, sects, etc. His radio channel would be included. I'm just pointing out how weird it is that this is considered part of Jewish music and "a new low", but Ben Ari is not even considered Jewish.

2) Not to my recollection. I'm sure there is a reason why Ribo yes and Ben Ari no, (picking these names because they were the ones mentioned) and likely it's obvious to Israelis who know the people and scene, I just don't know why.

3) Who is in charge of this collective? I know of one mashpiah in CH who called 8th Day "chazer treif". Is he in charge? Or is it the one who thinks groups like 8th Day are vital in keeping kids intrested in Yiddishkeit?

4) That debate has raged in this very thread many times, and I've been part of it. My point is, again, there is no deah zogger who decides. It's a personal decision, either by the individual or institution. If you don't think it's Jewish, it's not for you. There is no collective voice to make the judgements for you.

I feel like Israeli music especially has so many blurred lines. An entirely secular non religious artist can write a beautiful, deeply spiritual song, and vice versa, unfortunately. Being upset that the latter is somehow part of Jewish music seems weird to me. Just say it's not Jewish and be done with it.

AsherO · « **Reply #4130 on:** September 11, 2022, 08:53:18 PM »

Quote from: Yehuda57 on September 11, 2022, 08:38:54 PM

3) Who is in charge of this collective? I know of one mashpiah in CH who called 8th Day "chazer treif". Is he in charge? Or is it the one who thinks groups like 8th Day are vital in keeping kids intrested in Yiddishkeit?

There are Mashpiim that are out of touch, nothing new.