Supreme Court of the United States Recent Rulings

[wayfe]

So you hate gay people?
What if it was your kid? Your sibling? Your relative? Would you hate them too?

Hate the sin, not the sinner

[Achas Veachas]

You're right about that-it's not worth our time. Western civilization will corrode and eventually collapse just like all of history's greats, the corruption of morals usually being the beginning of the end, as in the oft cited case of the Roman Empire. This decision was inevitable, whether now or in a decade from now.

So we agree that this ruling had zero bearing on us as Frum Jews...

[Aj3042]

I know better than to bother arguing with you or even telling you my thoughts.

Feel free to start a petition to get congress to pass an amendment banning gay marriage. I hear those are usually a good use of time.

No need. As I said

This decision was inevitable, whether now or in a decade from now.

It was important to oppose it (as it may be to continue civilly opposing it, as some of those "evil religious Christian bigots" proposed). Now that it's done we move on even more sure of our knowledge that secular Western civilization has little future.

Btw I understand arguing with some Chabadsters about these things is pointless as well (some, as others are normal, or "close minded" in your terms). 

[Aj3042]

Hate the sin, not the sinner

Correct. But he wants to appeal to emotion so leave him be.

[Aj3042]

So we agree that this ruling had zero bearing on us as Frum Jews...

No not at all. It was just inevitable. Things going on around us do impact us. We don't live in caves (though, come to think of it, maybe we should, with all this going on).

[Dan]

Btw I understand arguing with some Chabadsters about these things is pointless as well (some, as others are normal, or "close minded" in your terms). 

Hate to break it to you, but you're literally the only person on DDF that I won't enter into an argument with anymore. Just beyond pointless.

[wayfe]

You have the right to be as outraged as you want. You have that right not just as a Torah believing Jew but as an American citizen. As for me, getting outraged about a ruling that has no bearing on how I keep Torah seems like a waste of energy.

Are you as ok with rape and murder, theft, bribery.

Legalizing any form of immoral behavior should be enraging even if it doesn't affect your personal religious observance.

[Aj3042]

Hate to break it to you, but you're literally the only person on DDF that I won't enter into an argument with anymore.

I'll take it as a compliment. I'm the only one that just won't back down.

[Dan]

Take it for whatever you want.  I've backed down when I realize I'm wrong, it's a trait that normal humans have. At least once in a while.

[Achas Veachas]

Are you as ok with rape and murder, theft, bribery.

Legalizing any form of immoral behavior should be enraging even if it doesn't affect your personal religious observance.

Those have a direct affect on how I live my life, this doesn't.

[Aj3042]

And the march toward craziness continues.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nyc-bill-require-bathrooms-gender-neutral-32053243

[Aj3042]

Take it for whatever you want.  I've backed down when I realize I'm wrong, it's a trait that normal humans have. At least once in a while.

Talk about learning to argue. If I tell you 1+1=3 and you prove to me I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. You've never PROVED anything, have you? you've argued your opinions. so Iv'e come in with strong opinions and didn't back down from your views. When you PROVE something to me and i don't back down, then we'll talk.

[wayfe]

Btw I understand arguing with some Chabadsters about these things is pointless as well (some, as others are normal, or "close minded" in your terms).

What am I missing here- what's Chabad got to do with it?

[Aaaron]

Correct. But he wants to appeal to emotion so leave him be.

Hating people because of a religious belief is as emotional as you can get.  Not logical at all.

Are you as ok with rape and murder, theft, bribery.

Legalizing any form of immoral behavior should be enraging even if it doesn't affect your personal religious observance.

The difference is that those are immoral without bringing religion into it.  Maybe a distinction without a difference to you, but not to a lot of people.

[Achas Veachas]

Btw I understand arguing with some Chabadsters about these things is pointless as well (some, as others are normal, or "close minded" in your terms). 

Can I propose Achas' Law (the DDF version of Godwin's Law):

"As a DDF thread grows longer, the probability of a Chabad bashing post to be made approaches 1"

[Aj3042]

I asked you a yes or no question and got no answer.

In my heart of hearts I don't believe Hashem wants me to hate gay people. Or people who don't keep all his mitzvos. 
At the end of the day Judiasm is NOT all about Halacha. If there is no heart and soul in it... you might have missed the boat.  I am well aware that in todays world many are not taught anything but how to follow what's black and white. But honestly, most things aren't black and white.

No they aren't. But what's in your heart of hearts isn't what cuts it. As I said, David Hamelech praises himself in numerous places in Tehillim for hating the enemies of Hashem. Now whether you hate the sin or the sinner there's some hate that's warranted. It's written all over-all you need is to open your eyes to what the Torah says, not what your heart says.

[Aj3042]

Hating people because of a religious belief is as emotional as you can get.  Not logical at all.

The difference is that those are immoral without bringing religion into it.  Maybe a distinction without a difference to you, but not to a lot of people.

Sorry, why is theft immoral? Pagans used to do it all the time? Societies did it gladly and in mass since the beginning of time. Blah blah blah

Can I propose Achas' Law (the DDF version of Godwin's Law):

I like that law. 

[Aaaron]

No they aren't. But what's in your heart of hearts isn't what cuts it. As I said, David Hamelech praises himself in numerous places in Tehillim for hating the enemies of Hashem. Now whether you hate the sin or the sinner there's some hate that's warranted. It's written all over-all you need is to open your eyes to what the Torah says, not what your heart says.

Let me get this straight (no pun intended).  Hashem makes a gay person, who in turn is his "enemy."  And you must hate him.  Did I get that right?

[Achas Veachas]

No they aren't. But what's in your heart of hearts isn't what cuts it. As I said, David Hamelech praises himself in numerous places in Tehillim for hating the enemies of Hashem. Now whether you hate the sin or the sinner there's some hate that's warranted. It's written all over-all you need is to open your eyes to what the Torah says, not what your heart says.

And where does Torah say that a Mumar Lete'avon is to be hated?

Hate if a strong Psak. A very strong  Makor is needed...

[wayfe]

In my heart of hearts I don't believe Hashem wants me to hate gay people. Or people who don't keep all his mitzvos. 
At the end of the day Judiasm is NOT all about Halacha. If there is no heart and soul in it... you might have missed the boat.  I am well aware that in todays world many are not taught anything but Halacha and how to follow what's black and white. But honestly, most things aren't black and white.

Unfortunately, Judaism is not about what we feel in our "hearts of hearts". It's not a mushy-gushy religion- and as I've said above things aren't good because they "feel" right. Things are right because the Torah says so.

First comes halacha- then comes the feeling. Mind then heart. First we look and see what halacha says, once that's clear we can decide what the appropriate feeling is.