Supreme Court of the United States Recent Rulings

[Aj3042]

Let me get this straight (no pun intended). Hashem makes a gay person, who in turn is his "enemy."  And you must hate him.  Did I get that right?

What? Does hashem make murderers and thieves too? Ever heard of free will? Pretty basic stuff

And where does Torah say that a Mumar Lete'avon is to be hated?

Hate if a strong Psak. A very strong  Makor is needed...

You're confusing all sorts of dinim that relate to different things. Yes, gemara in Brachos, and paskened in Rambam. A person who openly violates the Torah it is muttar to hate him. it says those exact words. And mumar Lete'avon is said in relation to other dinim like shechita nothing at all to do with this.

[wayfe]

Let me get this straight (no pun intended).  Hashem makes a gay person, who in turn is his "enemy."  And you must hate him.  Did I get that right?

That's an entirely different discussion. But in short we all can desire things that we shouldn't. What about blood lust, or anger or any negative disposition?

[Aaaron]

What? Does hashem make murderers and thieves too? Ever heard of free will? Pretty basic stuff

Wait, so you're one of those people that think being gay is a choice?  Like choosing to steal or kill?

Alrighty, now I understand why Dan doesn't waste his time. 

[Aj3042]

Unfortunately, Judaism is not about what we feel in our "hearts of hearts". It's not a mushy-gushy religion- and as I've said above things aren't good because they "feel" right. Things are right because the Torah says so.

First comes halacha- then comes the feeling. Mind then heart. First we look and see what halacha says, once that's clear we can decide what the appropriate feeling is.

Correct. One of the biggest problems today is that people first think "what is my opinion" and then it's :how do I twist the torah to say like me?".

[sky121]

Wait, so you're one of those people that think being gay is a choice?  Like choosing to steal or kill?

Alrighty, now I understand why Dan doesn't waste his time.

Being gay might not be free choice but acting on it is.

[sky121]

Unfortunately, Judaism is not about what we feel in our "hearts of hearts". It's not a mushy-gushy religion- and as I've said above things aren't good because they "feel" right. Things are right because the Torah says so.

First comes halacha- then comes the feeling. Mind then heart. First we look and see what halacha says, once that's clear we can decide what the appropriate feeling is.

Halacha does not determine how I feel. Gd saying man shouldn't act on being gay does not make me hate gay people.  And when people are treated poorly because their choices aren't in accordance with what people believe I feel bad for them.


While we may not appreciate or agree on this ruling because it doesn't follow the spirit and laws of OUR Torah it's the hatred and disgust brewing that worries me a lot more for our  Jewish nation than this law being passed.

[Aj3042]

Wait, so you're one of those people that think being gay is a choice?  Like choosing to steal or kill?

Alrighty, now I understand why Dan doesn't waste his time.

First off, it's irrelevant. i don't care whether you were born with it or not. You have free will to oppose it, just as any other sin. Seriously, don't you know this? Free will is one of the cornerstones of Judaism. If you don't agree with it or get it you have serious issues?

As a side point, you just outed yourself and Dan as well. "So you're one of those people that think being gay is a choice?" Even putting aside the torah idea of free will, there's no proof at all that being gay is from birth or a choice. There's zero conclusive evidence to either way. So don't make it sound i'm saying the earth is flat. It's obvious you just don't want to face off someone who can challenge your view.

However, as I said, regardless of that point, if you're not a believer in free will you're in very bad shape. Are you even religious? If not, I get where you're coming from but i won'r argue as that would be pointless. If yes, I suggest you sit down and review the basics of your faith.

ETA:

Being gay might not be free choice but acting on it is.

I see SOME on the other side do get it. Maybe with him I can have a discussion. You (Aaaron) first need to learn the ABC's.

[wayfe]

Halacha does not determine how I feel

Maybe it should. The Torah commands us how to act, think and feel. V'ahavta Es Hashem Elokecha- here you are commanded to love. V'samachta B'chagecha...

[Aj3042]

Halacha does not determine how I feel. Gd saying man shouldn't act on being gay does not make me hate gay people.  And when people are treated poorly because their choices aren't in accordance with what people believe I feel bad for them.


While we may not appreciate or agree on this ruling because it doesn't follow the spirit and laws of OUR Torah it's the hatred and disgust brewing that worries me a lot more for our  Jewish nation than this law being passed.

Treated poorly? Are they stoned or beheaded, like the torah says? No they're not. How are they treated poorly? By not recognizing their "marriage"? Are animals also treated poorly for we don't recognize their marriages?

[Aj3042]

Maybe it should. The Torah commands us how to act, think and feel. V'ahavta Es Hashem Elokecha- here you are commanded to love. V'samachta B'chagecha...

Maybe it should? You mean it MUST! How else should we feel besides the way god tells us to?

[Achas Veachas]

What? Does hashem make murderers and thieves too? Ever heard of free will? Pretty basic stuffYou're confusing all sorts of dinim that relate to different things. Yes, gemara in Brachos, and paskened in Rambam. A person who openly violates the Torah it is muttar to hate him. it says those exact words. And mumar Lete'avon is said in relation to other dinim like shechita nothing at all to do with this.

So in the spirit of equality, I'll assume you hate all non-Frum Jews and all non-Jews who don't keep Sheva Mitzvos equally and that this hated isn't reserved only for gay people

[Aj3042]

I'm checking out again. i leave the scared duty of representing such primitive beliefs as what the torah says in the hands of my fellow hateful homophobic bigot, Wayfe.
And btw Wayfe, in today's corrupted society often the more bad titles you have the better!

[sky121]

I'm checking out again. i leave the scared duty of representing such primitive beliefs as what the torah says in the hands of my fellow hateful homophobic bigot, Wayfe.
And btw Wayfe, in today's corrupted society often the more bad titles you have the better!

Good Shabbos !

[Aj3042]

Good Shabbos !

Good shabbos!
I must say I (kind of) like arguing with Achas because he sticks to his opinion and asks relevant questions and makes good observations. If you want to join the arguing club, sky121, please do! But the way Dan and others argue, by stating their OPINIONS and then claiming I'm no good because I don't back down in face of their great intellectual prowess (and their so called "proofs") is kind of immature. I don't recall Achas or other mature arguers ever doing that.
@Dan, when you show me a scientific law, mathematical equation, or clear cut Biblical verse that supports you I'll back off. Until then it's my OPINION against yours.

[avremie]

The case does matter to us because it decreases our chance of winning the upcoming 'must I bake a cake' controversy.

[Dan]

As a side point, you just outed yourself and Dan as well. "So you're one of those people that think being gay is a choice?"

You are a pathetic human being. Don't you dare put words in my mouth.
I am done here.

[Aj3042]

You are a pathetic human being. Don't you dare put words in my mouth.
I am done here.

As am I. Getting personal now-apparently I've hit a raw nerve (the truth hurts). I suggest you take a lesson from some of the others who are more civil.

(As a side point, you probably misunderstood my comment. When I said he "outed you" I was not referring to this particular point of gays being born like that but to the general idea that he has an opinion backed by no scientific facts and anyone who argues is "one of those folks you can't argue with". If this is indeed the case, i suggest you scrutinize things more closely (and be "dan l'kaf zechus" as you often say at your convenience) before attacking and/or getting personal.)

[Achas Veachas]

As am I. Getting personal now-apparently I've hit a raw nerve (the truth hurts). I suggest you take a lesson from some of the others who are more civil.

As one of those you labeled "civil" I suggest you take that lesson as well.

[Aj3042]

As one of those you labeled "civil" I suggest you take that lesson as well.

Ok you've just lost your title. 

[wayfe]

On a lighter note- evolution agrees with Judaism on one thing: it's unnatural.