Supreme Court of the United States Recent Rulings

[Achas Veachas]

the example used in Psachim of someone you have a mitzvah to hate is znus. That is the sonaacha of prika uteina.

I finally found the Pesachim and I don't think these people we are dealing with here fulfill the conditions (at least I HOPE you didn't see them all doing a Dvar Erva....)

[Yehuda57]

I think that's one of the biggest issues with people today. Everybody is so afraid of being called a racist or a hater or a bigot or close-minded or intolerant that we all just parrot the popular catchphrases and bend over backwards trying to incorporate secular ideas into our belief system.

I think that's one of the biggest issues today, people are so uptight and wound up they mistake corny jokes for ideologies.

[Achas Veachas]

Actually many poskim say it is assur to rule from shulchan aruch without knowing what leads to it. This includes kadmonim like the maharsha, maharshal, and those who followed. Saying that halacha starts and ends with shulchan aruch is ignorance. it starts with shas and goes to poskim. But again, another discussion.

I said bring the Shu"a and then we'll DISCUSS IT...

[Aj3042]

I think that's one of the biggest issues with people today. Everybody is so afraid of being called a racist or a hater or a bigot or close-minded or intolerant that we all just parrot the popular catchphrases and bend over backwards trying to incorporate secular ideas into our belief system.

Couldn't have said it better. Which is why I said, the more titles you have today-hater, bigot, homophobe, intolerant, etc., the more praiseworthy you generally are.

I said bring the Shu"a and then we'll DISCUSS IT...

Can we wait for after Shabbos? Please?

[aygart]

I'm sorry, Halachah for me is Shu"A, not Gemarah and not Rambam (unless your from Teiman) bring the Shu"a and we'll see if it applies to this case.

How about MGA? Other poskim After the SA? Chofetz Chaim?

[aygart]

I finally found the Pesachim and I don't think these people we are dealing with here fulfill the conditions (at least I HOPE you didn't see them all doing a Dvar Erva....)

There are conditions under which assumptions may be made. The general assumption is that someone who flaunts being gay especially to the extent of marriage has done mishkav zochor.

[Aj3042]

There are conditions under which assumptions may be made. The general assumption is that someone who flaunts being gay especially to the extent of marriage has done mishkav zochor.

Yep pretty basic point there not sure what's so hard to get.

[jj1000]

You obviously do't get it. There's a mitzvah to hate those who publicly flaunt their aveiros. Please learn the inyanim first then talk. Now we're discussing halacha not your opinions so please educate yourself before taking part (this includes gemara and poskim not just chabad torah's)

And I quote.

,Gemara in Brachos, and paskened in Rambam. A person who openly violates the Torah it is muttar to hate him. it says those exact words.

Have a good shabbos.

the MGA says it is someone who does not accept tochacha. What you wrote about them saying that one is allowed to hate them is simply ignorance. That is not what"mitzvah lisnoso"means

I don't think you hate yourself, so what I said wasn't directed towards you.

[aygart]

And the march toward craziness continues.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nyc-bill-require-bathrooms-gender-neutral-32053243

considering that it only applies to single user bathrooms and not multi stall ones, who cares? Why were they labeled for a gender in the first place?

[zale]

The difference is that those are immoral without bringing religion into it.  Maybe a distinction without a difference to you, but not to a lot of people.

Who decides what is moral and what is not? Does it go according to what you "feel" is moral? If you like like it - it's moral, and if you don't - it's not? Perhaps rape and murder can be justified?

What Liberals fail to acknowledge is that morality has its roots in the Bible. The founding fathers of the United States, the same ones that wrote the Constitution to PROTECT American citizens from tyranny, have also written how we are a nation under G-D.

Is adultery immoral? Says who? Is incest immoral? Says who? Is pedophilia immoral? Who says children under 18 can't "consent"?

A man sleeping with another man is utterly despicable. Not because I said so (even though the mere thought makes me vomit) but because G-D did. Don't believe in G-D? Then perhaps you should butt out of the constitution which was written by those who do believe in G-D.

[Yehuda57]

The founding fathers... have also written how we are a nation under G-D.

Source?

[Aaaron]

Who decides what is moral and what is not? Does it go according to what you "feel" is moral? If you like like it - it's moral, and if you don't - it's not? Perhaps rape and murder can be justified?

What Liberals fail to acknowledge is that morality has its roots in the Bible. The founding fathers of the United States, the same ones that wrote the Constitution to PROTECT American citizens from tyranny, have also written how we are a nation under G-D.

Secular morality exists, whether you like it or not.  Morals can be determined using social, cultural, historical norms, religion, etc., or any combination thereof.  Are you really trying to compare being gay to murder and rape?

Is adultery immoral? Says who? Is incest immoral? Says who? Is pedophilia immoral? Who says children under 18 can't "consent"?

If you need religion to tell you that certain things are wrong I don't even...

A man sleeping with another man is utterly despicable.

Because you've been inculcated that it's vile.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  But know, if you were born in isolation - more likely than not - you wouldn't have the same reaction.

Don't believe in G-D? Then perhaps you should butt out of the constitution which was written by those who do believe in G-D.

Ummm, most of the founding fathers were theistic rationalists, according to most historians.  Go read some quotes of theirs and you'll think they were atheists and others imply they were more religious.  No way to know for certain.

Lastly, contrary to popular belief, the constitution was not based on Christianity or its values.  Just read the Treaty of Tripoli.

[wayfe]

Source?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

[zale]

You have the right to be as outraged as you want. You have that right not just as a Torah believing Jew but as an American citizen. As for me, getting outraged about a ruling that has no bearing on how I keep Torah seems like a waste of energy.

Are you sure it has no bearing on you as a Jew? There is speculation as to whether today's ruling has effectively made gay marriage a "civil right". If it is, then if two gay men or women ask a rabbi to be Mesader Kiddushin and he refuses, he can potentially be penalized for violating their civil rights. Same goes for a Jewish wedding hall, musician, caterer etc..

Again, this is speculation. I'm not a constitutional lawyer. All I'm saying is don't be so sure this won't affect Torah Observant Jews.

[wayfe]

Secular morality exists, whether you like it or not.  Morals can be determined using social, cultural, historical norms, religion, etc., or any combination thereof.  Are you really trying to compare being gay to murder and rape?

If you need religion to tell you that certain things are wrong I don't even...

You are fundamentally mistaken there.

What's wrong with anything? Why is the "law of the jungle" not moral? Why are all men equal?

THERE IS NO MORALITY WITHOUT G-D.

Tzvi Freeman explains this idea quite well here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/36441/jewish/How-Does-G-d-Decide-Whats-Right-and-Whats-Wrong.htm

[Aaaron]

You are fundamentally mistaken there.

What's wrong with anything? Why is the "law of the jungle" not moral? Why are all men equal?

THERE IS NO MORALITY WITHOUT G-D.

Tzvi Freeman explains this idea quite well here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/36441/jewish/How-Does-G-d-Decide-Whats-Right-and-Whats-Wrong.htm

I'll read that later.  But, why isn't every atheist a thief, murderer and rapist?  Because there can be an innate sense of right and wrong based on the other factor I mentioned.  The main difference between religious morals and secular morals is that secular morals are solely based on things that harm others.  Religious morals are more encompassing. 

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Just read the last ten pages and hopefully when most of you come back the hatred will not return.

[Achas Veachas]

I wasn't following for the past hour but here's a thought experiment before licht bentchen.

If the Supreme Court ruled that Buddhism is illegal due to the idol worshipping not being consistent with the Christian values of the founding fathers, would you take it as a great victory for Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach or a dangerous meddling in what should be a religious matter?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I wasn't following for the past hour but here's a thought experiment before licht bentchen.

If the Supreme Court ruled that Buddhism is illegal due to the idol worshipping not being consistent with the Christian values of the founding fathers, would you take it as a great victory for Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach or a dangerous meddling in what should be a religious matter?

That.

[Sport]

I wasn't following for the past hour but here's a thought experiment before licht bentchen.

If the Supreme Court ruled that Buddhism is illegal due to the idol worshipping not being consistent with the Christian values of the founding fathers, would you take it as a great victory for Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach or a dangerous meddling in what should be a religious matter?

Speaking of slippery slopes... Good shabbos!