Supreme Court of the United States Recent Rulings

[CountValentine]

Depends which medical professionals. There's not exactly a consensus amongst professionals in this area.

Do your own Google search. Top four when I searched:

From Johns Hopkins: There is no one-size-fits-all approach for the gender affirmation process. Research surgical and nonsurgical options and talk to experts to create an individualized plan.

From the AAMC: The AAMC joined other medical organizations in an amicus brief opposing the Texas order, arguing that extensive scientific evidence exists to support those therapies and that the law would force doctors to risk endangering their patients by not providing that care.

From the Cleveland Clinic: Gender affirmation surgery refers to procedures that help people transition to their self-identified gender. Gender-affirming options may include facial surgery, top surgery or bottom surgery. Most people who choose gender affirmation surgeries report improved mental health and quality of life.

From Psychology Today: Sixteen studies to date have examined the impact of gender-affirming medical care for transgender youth. Existing evidence suggests that gender-affirming medical care results in favorable mental health outcomes. All major medical organizations oppose legislation that would ban gender-affirming medical care for transgender adolescents.

But hey, why listen to them. Trust your right-wing politicians!!! 

[dm123]

Depends which medical professionals. There's not exactly a consensus amongst professionals in this area. There are plenty of doctors that would view gender affirming surgery to minors are a horrific crime. Do we view them as unquestionably right too, or are we going to start differentiating between medical professionals that share our views and those that don't (the way we tend to with religions)?

Citation? So far I've been asking on this thread for organizations/individual practitioners/basically anything in the field that stated against the AMA/AAP/etc mentioned earlier and the response was Walsh/Rufo/Documentary and the medical establishment was infiltrated by the woke and the voice of reason is being quashed/censored, which to me sounds conspiratorial and partisan. If you have someone on the record please share.

The one study posted (as discussed perhaps biased and weak methodology) indicates treatment helps. Are there other studies/research? What are the Bill's sources?

Perhaps I view it as terrible due to my religious/moral view, but if you want to make medical/scientific claims about a matter, and especially if a government is legislating due to it, it should be backed it up with more than "shock value comments".

[imayid2]

What a nutty world we live in. People will actually attempt to turn their little boy into a girl because some quack medical professional who wouldn’t bat an eyelash at the idea of slaughtering the child in utero if the parents were concerned that the child will identify with the opposite gender or something like that. Professional nutcases.

[imayid2]

Citation? So far I've been asking on this thread for organizations/individual practitioners/basically anything in the field that stated against the AMA/AAP/etc mentioned earlier and the response was Walsh/Rufo/Documentary and the medical establishment was infiltrated by the woke and the voice of reason is being quashed/censored, which to me sounds conspiratorial and partisan. If you have someone on the record please share.

The one study posted (as discussed perhaps biased and weak methodology) indicates treatment helps. Are there other studies/research? What are the Bill's sources?

Perhaps I view it as terrible due to my religious/moral view, but if you want to make medical/scientific claims about a matter, and especially if a government is legislating due to it, it should be backed it up with more than "shock value comments".

The default is that these “treatments” are criminal mutilation until prove otherwise. Like serious proof.

[drosenberg88429]

Do your own Google search. Top four when I searched:

The doctors I know irl will mostly say this is child abuse.

You may tell me that there's a selection bias with the doctors I am acquainted with. Fair point. I may contend that there's a selection bias with the doctors the academic world and Google are likely to showcase, though.

I was just responding to the notion that just because a medical professional says something doesn't make it gospel and unquestionably objectively true. The fact that there is such a thing as a lack of consensus amongst medical professionals regarding various issues would generally evidence such a statement as being accurate.

[dm123]

What a nutty world we live in. People will actually attempt to turn their little boy into a girl because some quack medical professional who wouldn’t bat an eyelash at the idea of slaughtering the child in utero if the parents were concerned that the child will identify with the opposite gender or something like that. Professional nutcases.

Everyone in the entire medical establishment are professional nutcases?

I'm just looking for some citations backing up our side and after over 10 pages have yet to see 1 study/paper/medical professional back it up. Perhaps they are all morally wrong but if you want to claim they are medically wrong you need to back that claim up please.

[CountValentine]

Perhaps I view it as terrible due to my religious/moral view, but if you want to make medical/scientific claims about a matter, and especially if a government is legislating due to it, it should be backed it up with more than "shock value comments".

Did I mention the government (Medicaid) covers these treatments. 

[bochur22]

Citation? So far I've been asking on this thread for organizations/individual practitioners/basically anything in the field that stated against the AMA/AAP/etc mentioned earlier and the response was Walsh/Rufo/Documentary and the medical establishment was infiltrated by the woke and the voice of reason is being quashed/censored, which to me sounds conspiratorial and partisan. If you have someone on the record please share.

[dm123]

The default is that these “treatments” are criminal mutilation until prove otherwise. Like serious proof.

The default is we rely on the medical establishment, which from what I've seen here so far seem to be perfectly fine with this as a legitimate treatment.


And the main issue here is Government legislating doctors how to treat patients, they want to do that I would like to see more than just reference to unnamed research in a bill.

[bochur22]

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Trans-Nation-Psychiatrists-Madness/dp/1510777741/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=unprotected+grossman&qid=1677189705&sr=8-2

[bochur22]

The default is we rely on the medical establishment.

As long as they're acting medically...

[CountValentine]

The fact that there is such a thing as a lack of consensus amongst medical professionals regarding various issues would generally evidence such a statement as being accurate.

What respected medical professions don't approve of this as a treatment?
I didn't check the Mayo Clinic but feel free. 
ETA: I couldn't resist.
From Mayo Clinic: The Transgender and Intersex Specialty Care Clinic (TISCC) provides integrated medical, psychosocial and surgical intervention to individuals with gender dysphoria/incongruence and to those with differences of sexual development (intersex). The team includes providers from various specialties including endocrinology, pediatric endocrinology, social work, psychiatry, psychology, voice therapy, gynecology and plastic surgery.

[bochur22]

Medicine must be science based

[dm123]

@bochur22 thank you! No idea who this Dr. Miriam Grossman is and will try and look at the video you posted later but seems finally a medical professional to put in the equation.

[dm123]

As long as they're acting medically...

Medicine must be science based

And who decides "acting medically"/"science based"?

My judgement? Yours? National referendum? Supreme Court?

[drosenberg88429]

Everyone in the entire medical establishment are professional nutcases?

I'm just looking for some citations backing up our side and after over 10 pages have yet to see 1 study/paper/medical professional back it up. Perhaps they are all morally wrong but if you want to claim they are medically wrong you need to back that claim up please.

You want any examples? Google is happy to oblige.


"Many children who experience gender
dysphoria (GD), a sense of discomfort
from incongruence between their gen-
der identity and assigned sex, will not con-
tinue to experience dysphoria into adolescence
and adulthood. However, a substantial minority
(2–27% across studies) will continue to report GD
and may seek services for gender reassignment
later in life. To date, the prospective follow-up
studies on children with GD, for whom the
majority would meet the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic
criteria for Gender Identity Disorder (GID)1
collectively reported on the outcomes of 246
children. At the time of follow-up in adolescence
or adulthood, these studies showed that, for the
majority of children (84.2%; n ¼ 207), the GD
desisted.2 These studies were conducted across
several decades during which the opportunity
and social acceptance for gender reassignment
has increased dramatically. The current study
focuses on children in a context in which gender
reassignment is available, generally socially
accepted, and covered by health insurance."


https://www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Steensma-2013_desistance-rates.pdf


This isn't an argument that can really be determined in the favor of those claiming that the medical field is in unanimous consensus regarding the fact that these children will maintain their dysphoria into adulthood and the the appropriate course of treatment is to proceed with irreversible gender affirming surgery on their behalfs. All it takes is one dissenting opinion, and that goes away.

That's the problem with saying everyone says something. It's not very hard to prove that it isn't everyone. Then we start discrediting the validity and legitimacy of various sources and opinions, and engaging in labeling and ad hominem attacks. Most threads follow a fairly predictable pattern.

Insert hamster gif here.

[CountValentine]

One side: Here is every major health organization that approves of these treatments.

Other side: It is mutilation.


This is a real a hard one. Which side would you go with? 

[dm123]

Thank you!

I'm looking for
1) the current medical consensus (obviously won't be unanimous but want to know if there is one or if not how evenly/unevenly it's split)
2) Backup for the Idaho bill, what you posted (haven't clicked through and read through it) seems to backup 10b, although what are the risks until the child gets there?

So far after over 10 pages we have on one side AMA/AAP/many well respected clinics offering it/medicaid paying for it (although with the caveat that they've been infilitrated by the woke left and aren't "scienceing" properly. and on the other the Idaho bill, so far seemingly with partial basis from the study you just posted, and Dr M. Grossman.

[dm123]

Finally! I was getting quite hungry!

Will we be serving pretzels or fish outta water this round?

[drosenberg88429]

On the subject of citations:

This article below was written by someone heavily in favor of having children that identity as transgender undergo treatment, and even the writer throws in incidentally than nobody would be crazy enough to have a child undergo irreversible surgery before reaching adulthood and being able to weigh the ramifications and make such a decision. (The writer is also opposed to having prepubescent children undergo hormonal treatments, and instead condones providing the child gender affirming clothing, having them participate in activities consistent with their chosen gender, and giving them a gender affirming name and social treatment.)

"This comes in the midst of a flurry of media stories about transgender youth who choose to stop hormone therapies, ranging from a cover story in the Atlantic to more heavy-handed pieces from conservative writers and pundits who have painted a picture of crazed liberal doctors irreversibly “mutilating” the bodies of confused children.

The reality could not be further from the truth."

"Surgery is, of course, irreversible and requires serious thought. Big surgeries like phalloplasty and vaginoplasty are not offered until patients have reached adulthood."

This was written 4 years ago.
Interesting how much has changed in a few short years.


https://www.vox.com/2018/10/22/18009020/transgender-children-teens-transition-detransition-puberty-blocking-medication



(Jack Turban is, or was at time this article was written, a resident physician in child and adolescent psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital and McLean Hospital. His research focuses or focused on the mental health of transgender and gender diverse youth.)