FBI raids jewish college

[elit]

It is clearly stating the definition of a king and the qualification of when DDD is applied. absolutely no diukim ... Just BTW you can come to my house and take my Dayanus certification off the wall after you go to the 2 mara deasras of huge cites (who gave it to me ) and take theirs off too... but first you should go to the person who taught you how to read and understand and verify his credentials

Great we got a self proclaimed dayan promoting tax fraud.

[dealfinder85]

Great we got a self proclaimed dayan promoting tax fraud.

lol again

[Yehuda57]

Great we got a self proclaimed dayan promoting tax fraud.

And you know he's an expert, because he brought up tax fraud in a thread about a school being raided by the FBI for unknown reasons, though speculated by one reporter to be improperly receiving Federal funding - not fudging taxes. So he clearly gets all the nuances in financial law and Halacha.

[skyguy918]

It is clearly stating the definition of a king and the qualification of when DDD is applied. absolutely no diukim ... Just BTW you can come to my house and take my Dayanus certification off the wall after you go to the 2 mara deasras of huge cites (who gave it to me ) and take theirs off too... but first you should go to the person who taught you how to read and understand and verify his credentials

Your diyuk is that the melech case is to the exclusion of all other cases, when in fact that is not the the intention. The Shulchan Aruch Harav speaks in terms of melech because that's the case the gemara, rishonim, and prior poskim speak of (there wasn't much democracy going around then). The important words are הואיל והסכימו עליו, which is a qualification met in every democracy - the citizens agree to the follow the laws of the land. The proof that this was his intention is the source quoted there in רח:

ב"ב דף נה ע"א. מרדכי פ"[ד] דב"ב רמז תקכב. וראה גם תוס' ורשב"ם שם ד"ה אם.

This it that Rashbam, emphasis added:

כל מסיס וארנוניות ומנהגות של משסטי מלכים שרגילים להנהיג במלכותם דינא הוא שכל בני המלכות מקכליס עליהם מרצונם חוקי המלך ומשפטיו

This is exactly what was quoted earlier in this thread with the first link to a source on the matter:

Regarding your comment that people say Dina D'Malchuta does not apply to a democracy, this is not true at least according to the opinion of the Rishonim (Rashbam Bava Batra 54b. Responsa Or Zarua 745) that the king's authority regarding Dina D'Malchuta Dina derives from the consent of the people, which exists even more in a democratic regime. And so rule contemporary Halachic authorities (Tzitz Eliezer 16, 49. Igrot Moshe Choshen Mishpat 1, 88. Mishneh Halachot 14, 119. Yechaveh Da'at 5, 64).

Here's one relevant quote from that Tzitz Eliezer (though it's worth going through the whole tshuva if you really want to learn something on the subject):

ומדברי היש״ש הנ״ל בפ״י דב״ק מתבאר דאמרינן דד״ד גם בזמן שאין מלך והמדינה מונהגת ע״י ממשל שרים וכדומה.

[skyguy918]

I realize none of the above is going to sway the brilliant and vastly learned mind of Hadayan Hagaon Harav ADG, but I figured I'd post in anyway, l'toeles harabim.

[dealfinder85]

I realize none of the above is going to sway the brilliant and vastly learned mind of Hadayan Hagaon Harav ADG, but I figured I'd post in anyway, l'toeles harabim.

drosh vekabel schar, why not

[skyguy918]

Another interesting take on the subject of taxes in halacha, from R' Hershel Shachter:

TL;DR - He views modern taxes in democratic societies as a shutfus, and therefore governed by a whole different set of halachos (with the same end result - you have to pay your taxes).

It is important to note that today the basis for taxation is totally different from what it was in Talmudic times. Today, all modern countries provide a variety of services: They provide streets and highways, and maintain forests and museums. They provide fire, police, and military protection. They collect garbage and deliver mail. They do medical research to discover cures for diseases, etc. The taxes are collected for the purpose of covering the annual budget, which pays for all of these projects. The halacha views all of the people living in the same neighborhood as "shutfim" - "partners," sharing a common need for a shul, yeshiva, mikveh and an eruv, and therefore, the "partners" can force each other to put up the needed amount to further their partnership. So too, all people who live in the same city, state, and country are considered "shutfim" with respect to the services provided by that city, state, and country. The purpose behind the taxes is no longer "to enrich the king" in the slightest. In addition to all the other expenses, the government officials have to be paid as well, but it is because they serve as the employees of all the citizens for the purpose of looking after all these services, and seeing to it that they are properly taken care of. In our modern world, one who does not pay his proper share of taxes is no longer viewed as cheating the king (or the ruler) of the country, but rather as cheating (i.e. stealing from) his partners. The amount of money not paid by the one who cheats will have to be taken care of by having the rest of the "partners" put up more money from their pockets to cover all the expenses of the partnership. And even if much of the tax money goes towards expenditures that are not to one's personal liking and that one gets nothing out of, such is the halacha of any partnership: the majority of the partners have the right to determine what are the reasonable needs of the partnership (Choshen Mishpat 163:1). Therefore, this majority has the legitimate right to force the minority to contribute their share towards properly furthering the partnership.

[ADG]

Your diyuk is that the melech case is to the exclusion of all other cases, when in fact that is not the the intention. The Shulchan Aruch Harav speaks in terms of melech because that's the case the gemara, rishonim, and prior poskim speak of (there wasn't much democracy going around then). The important words are הואיל והסכימו עליו, which is a qualification met in every democracy - the citizens agree to the follow the laws of the land. The proof that this was his intention is the source quoted there in רח: This it that Rashbam, emphasis added:This is exactly what was quoted earlier in this thread with the first link to a source on the matter:Here's one relevant quote from that Tzitz Eliezer (though it's worth going through the whole tshuva if you really want to learn something on the subject):

You can not define the words of hoyil vehikimu ... as a democracy because of the clear context of how they are his servants and he is their master.
Obviously there are other opinions on the matter but the Shulchan Aruch Haravs is clearly regarding a king not like the US democracy . and yes His definition is meant to exclude anything that is not defined... as normal logic dictates

Just to clarify your opinion, Rabbi, it is completely halachically permissible to cheat on your taxes and/or commit fraud to cheat the gov't?  Do I have that right?

I am not a rabbi but i was taught by rabbis that this is the the opinion of Torah  ( specifically taxes )

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Why do a lot of these post read like a jailhouse lawyer wrote them?

[elit]

I am not a rabbi but i was taught by rabbis that this is the the opinion of Torah  ( specifically taxes )

So a dayan not a rabbi

[zale]

The amount of money not paid by the one who cheats will have to be taken care of by having the rest of the "partners" put up more money from their pockets to cover all the expenses of the partnership.

Even Obama would agree to this. When there isn't enough tax money to succeed in giving out free benefits, tax, tax [the working class] again.

Also, the feds can simply print more money. 18 trillion in debt... keep piling it on fellas. 

[skyguy918]

Even Obama would agree to this. When there isn't enough tax money to succeed in giving out free benefits, tax, tax [the working class] again.

Also, the feds can simply print more money. 18 trillion in debt... keep piling it on fellas.

Lol, way to take this thread OT from its primary OT branch.

[zale]

It's part of the same sugya. I'm simply bringing a raaya that by not paying taxes you are causing Obama to take more from other working class Americans.

[elit]

Why do a lot of these post read like a jailhouse lawyer wrote them?

Prepping for the future maybe

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Prepping for the future maybe

[avremie]

Just a thought, would England be different because they have a Queen?

[yitrap]

Just a thought, would England be different because they have a Queen?

Queen of England today is basically a formality - there are those that hold not to make a "Shecholak Mekovodo" on her.

[Yehuda57]

Queen of England today is basically a formality - there are those that hold not to make a "Shecholak Mekovodo" on her.

Because she's a woman. You can't make a brocha in front of a female

[yitrap]

Because she's a woman. You can't make a brocha in front of a female

Theres actually a side Shayla about her being a women and looking at a women blah blah but don't get me started on that

[Ergel]

Reading through this thread reminds me why I ignored the JS board.
Thanks for the reminder