FBI raids jewish college

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Either way people should discuss the matter purely in a legal or "ethical" sense and not venture into halacha if they don't know the halachos clearly (hint-most people that actually know aren't on DDF).

You want to discuss "fraud" in a legal/ethical sense? 

[freddy]

Does anyone know an ordained Orthodox Rabbi who gives heteirim for smuggling cigarettes from Virginia?

[Aaaron]

Does anyone know an ordained Orthodox Rabbi who gives heteirim for smuggling cigarettes from Virginia?

PM me, I'll sell you his info for $20.

[freddy]

PM me, I'll sell you his info for $20.

I had in mind a little cheaper than that.

[Aj3042]

You want to discuss "fraud" in a legal/ethical sense? 

Well definitely not in a legal sense because that is the very definition of a no-brainer.

[Iz]

If you want the Halacha in detail go read up about it... the bottom line is ( and i have heard this from a number of dayanim ) if you speed you are braking the law but you are not chaiv a chatas ( nor are you committing a chilul Hashem but thats another misconception for another day) The only taxes that is required is a property tax from a king whom owns the land and a tax that is based on the head count of a specific community so that if you abstain from paying it makes other jews ( / ppl  not sure)  having to pay more. taxes in the US doesnt fall under either category

[zale]

"If you speed you are braking the law". Pun intended?

[Achas Veachas]

Are you really going to make that day today...

Gotta leave something for Friday...

[PTU]

Mi kiamcha yisrael

The story was bad enough...

 Why are you trying to smear the entire klall yisroel with this stuff??!

[zale]

So Jewish law promotes committing fraud against the US government and says you should feel bad for the person when they get caught?

No and no.

Jewish law obviously does not promote committing fraud. Why do some in the Jewish community commit fraud, you ask? I believe it's because those Jews figured out a way to do it, whereas other potential tax-dodgers have not. If other people would figure out how to do it just as well, I can assure you that there would be the same crimes everywhere.

Credit card churning is a great example of this. Although it's not a crime, it goes without saying that if all credit card holders would know how to do it, they WOULD be doing it.

As for an individual getting caught, while Judaism does not condone any crime, and in most cases even considers the crime to be a sin, it does not "unJew" him or her. They remain a Jew despite their crime, and as such, Jews ought to assist him in the ways the Torah commands one Jew to assist another.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

No and no.

Jewish law obviously does not promote committing fraud. Why do some in the Jewish community commit fraud, you ask? I believe it's because those Jews figured out a way to do it, whereas other potential tax-dodgers have not. If other people would figure out how to do it just as well, I can assure you that there would be the same crimes everywhere.

Credit card churning is a great example of this. Although it's not a crime, it goes without saying that if all credit card holders would know how to do it, they WOULD be doing it.

As for an individual getting caught, while Judaism does not condone any crime, and in most cases even considers the crime to be a sin, it does not "unJew" him or her. They remain a Jew despite their crime, and as such, Jews ought to assist him in the ways the Torah commands one Jew to assist another.

Thanks for the detail explanation. My question is why someone would use Jewish law to justify this comment: "Its a great thing to take that money! its just a shame they got caught!" 

[Achas Veachas]

Thanks for the detail explanation. My question is why someone would use Jewish law to justify this comment: "Its a great thing to take that money! its just a shame they got caught!" 

Because people will abuse whatever they hold dear to justify whatever they do.

[Tankchucker]

(hint-most people that actually know aren't on DDF).

FTR there is somebody on ddf who has dayanus and shimush.

[AsherO]

FTR there is somebody on ddf who has dayanus and shimush.

And I'll bet anyone here $20 he won't come here and say it's Muttar to cheat on taxes, let alone a mitzvah.

[Achas Veachas]

And I'll bet anyone here $20 he won't come here and say it's Muttar to cheat on taxes, let alone a mitzvah.

+1
I'll bet he won't even give you a Heter in PM.

[elit]

Because people will abuse whatever they hold dear to justify whatever they do.

Well said.  Got to remember that line

[ADG]

No and no.

Jewish law obviously does not promote committing fraud. Why do some in the Jewish community commit fraud, you ask? I believe it's because those Jews figured out a way to do it, whereas other potential tax-dodgers have not. If other people would figure out how to do it just as well, I can assure you that there would be the same crimes everywhere.

Credit card churning is a great example of this. Although it's not a crime, it goes without saying that if all credit card holders would know how to do it, they WOULD be doing it.

As for an individual getting caught, while Judaism does not condone any crime, and in most cases even considers the crime to be a sin, it does not "unJew" him or her. They remain a Jew despite their crime, and as such, Jews ought to assist him in the ways the Torah commands one Jew to assist another.

You are confusing the situation and are incorrect  . not just you but everyone who thinks breaking the law necessarily constitute a sin...  thats the incorrect part.

To say that Judaism is promoting breaking the law was not my point as it is not so ... ( though i can probably think of a abnormal case were it is...)

To fuse those to together is either ignorant or worse...

Because people will abuse whatever they hold dear to justify whatever they do.

[zale]

You are confusing the situation and are incorrect  . not just you but everyone who thinks breaking the law necessarily constitute a sin...  thats the incorrect part.

Do me a favor, reread what I wrote and then tell me exactly what is incorrect with my statement.

Specifically, find me the part where I wrote that "breaking the law necessarily constitute a sin".

[ADG]

and in most cases even considers the crime to be a sin

You did right it vaguely to blur the situation. It is completely incorrect, thus, so is your point.

[zale]

You did right it vaguely to blur the situation. It is completely incorrect, thus, so is your point.

You meant to say:

"You did write it vaguely..."

Spelling corrections aside, to be clear, this thread is about crimes that involve cheating the government, either by accepting benefits, hiding income, or outright theft of government funding.

If this thread was about double-parking, not recycling, or not shoveling the snow off of your walk, I would agree that in most cases there is no sin.