FBI raids jewish college

[ADG]

You meant to say:

"You did write it vaguely..."

Spelling corrections aside, to be clear, this thread is about crimes that involve cheating the government, either by accepting benefits, hiding income, or outright theft of government funding.

If this thread was about double-parking, not recycling, or not shoveling the snow off of your walk, I would agree that in most cases there is no sin.

 To be clear the faculty in question was taking advantage on a government policy. Not theft not even fraud just taking advantage of poor policy something that is very common especially in this forum 
Your differentiation is not one that the Torah makes. The Torah's laws are not subjected to your moral code or to the laws or lack of laws of this government or any.

[zale]

To be clear the faculty in question was taking advantage on a government policy. Not theft not even fraud just taking advantage of poor policy something that is very common especially in this forum 
Your differentiation is not one that the Torah makes. The Torah's laws are not subjected to your moral code or to the laws or lack of laws of this government or any.

No, my differentiation was THEFT vs city-imposed conduct. While I would agree with you that it would need to be judged case-by-case to determine whether a particular crime is a sin, I still stand by my assessment that most fraud is an Aveira.

"taking advantage on a government policy" is your personal play on words here.

[ADG]

The two have nothing to do which each other (regardless if it is city or federal crimes) ! ... If you do not agree with that clear statement you lack a basic understanding of halacha.

[zale]

The two have nothing to do which each other (regardless if it is city or federal crimes) ! ... If you do not agree with that clear statement you lack a basic understanding of halacha.

I'm not sure what exactly your point of view is here. You aren't stating anything other than "not everything is a sin". Fine, most of us agree on that point.

When talking fraud in general, how can you argue that I am wrong when stating that most fraud is a sin? The Torah is pretty clear about not stealing. I don't have to prove that stealing is indeed an Aveira, you have to prove that a particular case is not an Aveira. I am merely stating the general Halacha, you are the one that needs to find the exception to that Halacha.

While I am at it, let me state some other things that you might object to:

-Eating bacon is a sin
-Murder is a sin
-Turning on the light on Shabbos is a sin

[skyguy918]

I'm not sure what exactly your point of view is here. You aren't stating anything other than "not everything is a sin". Fine, most of us agree on that point.

When talking fraud in general, how can you argue that I am wrong when stating that most fraud is a sin? The Torah is pretty clear about not stealing. I don't have to prove that stealing is indeed an Aveira, you have to prove that a particular case is not an Aveira. I am merely stating the general Halacha, you are the one that needs to find the exception to that Halacha.

I'll just point out that even if the scenarios being discussed (providing false information to the government to receive money that - by law - you don't deserve, or to avoid paying the government money that - by law - you owe) don't fall under the category of genaiva or gezaila, they would still be assur because of dina d'malchusa dina. Sources have already been quoted in this thread to reinforce that point. Sources to the contrary have not.

[ADG]

I'm not sure what exactly your point of view is here. You aren't stating anything other than "not everything is a sin". Fine, most of us agree on that point.

My point is Torah law has nothing to do with state or federal law or your moral compass .

I'm not sure what exactly your point of view is here. You aren't stating anything other than "not everything is a sin". Fine, most of us agree on that point.

When talking fraud in general, how can you argue that I am wrong when stating that most fraud is a sin? The Torah is pretty clear about not stealing. I don't have to prove that stealing is indeed an Aveira, you have to prove that a particular case is not an Aveira. I am merely stating the general Halacha, you are the one that needs to find the exception to that Halacha.

You are wrong... what constitutes fraud by the government like omitting income is not how Torah defines Onaha or Geneva ...

[skyguy918]

To be clear the faculty in question was taking advantage on a government policy. Not theft not even fraud just taking advantage of poor policy something that is very common especially in this forum 
Your differentiation is not one that the Torah makes. The Torah's laws are not subjected to your moral code or to the laws or lack of laws of this government or any.

If that's the case, then the school has nothing to worry about. You can't convict someone of a crime if they didn't break any laws. The fact that the FBI is building a case against them indicates that there likely were laws broken - if I had to guess, it's fraud.

[ADG]

I'll just point out that even if the scenarios being discussed (providing false information to the government to receive money that - by law - you don't deserve, or to avoid paying the government money that - by law - you owe) don't fall under the category of genaiva or gezaila, they would still be assur because of dina d'malchusa dina. Sources have already been quoted in this thread to reinforce that point. Sources to the contrary have not.

 Your source conveniently omits the Author of the Shulchan Aruch Harav (not sure which is worse If he did it on purpose or out of ignorance !) The holy Reb Sheunr Zalman of Liadi!

[zale]

My point is Torah law has nothing to do with state or federal law or your moral compass .

You are wrong... what constitutes fraud by the government like omitting income is not how Torah defines Onaha or Geneva ...

You are saying that hiding income from the government is not a violation of Halacha. Source please?

[ADG]

If that's the case, then the school has nothing to worry about. You can't convict someone of a crime if they didn't break any laws. The fact that the FBI is building a case against them indicates that there likely were laws broken - if I had to guess, it's fraud.

I thought jurries and judges convict not FBI Raids

[zale]

If that's the case, then the school has nothing to worry about. You can't convict someone of a crime if they didn't break any laws. The fact that the FBI is building a case against them indicates that there likely were laws broken - if I had to guess, it's fraud.

I would add that the feds almost never raid a peaceful facility unless they have a solid case built up. They don't start an investigation with a raid, the raid is usually the end of the investigation.

[ADG]

You are saying that hiding income from the government is not a violation of Halacha. Source please?

I gave a source in the thread which you clearly didnt read

[skyguy918]

Your source conveniently omits the Author of the Shulchan Aruch (not sure which is worse If he did it on purpose or out of ignorance !) The holy Reb Sheunr Zalman of Liadi!

First of all, it's known as the Shulchan Aruch Harav. The author of what's generally know as the Shulchan Aruch is R' Yosef Karo.
Second of all, here's a link to the Shulchan Aruch Harav online. Maybe you can help us find where he says this. But realize that even if you do find it, unless you pasken all halacha straight out of the Shulchan Aruch Ahrav, it's irrelevant. Contemporary poskim have taken a different stance, consistent with the view of most poskim of prior generations, that it is in fact asur.

I thought jurries and judges convict not FBI Raids

Can you point me to your post at the beginning of the thread where you screamed "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!!!"? I'm having trouble finding it. 

Seriously though, everyone here will agree that if there ends up being no case against the school (ie they've violated no secular laws), then they've also not viloated halacha. That's not what we're discussing, but you already knew that, didn't you?

[ADG]

Your point about Shulchan Aruch harav is taken and i correct it.  second your "link" is not a hyperlink.

My point is Torah law has nothing to do with state or federal law or your moral compass .

I find it very shocking that after this forum has been witness to fabricating CC forums and other countless forms of fraud and even more so "grey" lines in regard to company policy's , MS and many more. Is now on a high horse when similar practice is under investigation . 

[elit]

I find it very shocking that after this forum has embraced fabricating CC forums and other countless forms of fraud and even more so "grey" lines in regard to company policy's , MS and many more. Is now on a high horse when similar practice is under investigation .

Trying to stay out of this ridiculous argument but as a member of this forum I vehemently protest your statement that this forum embraces fabricating cc forms speak for yourself and don't project your view of ethics on others

[ADG]

Trying to stay out of this ridiculous argument but as a member of this forum I vehemently protest your statement that this forum embraces fabricating cc forms speak for yourself and don't project your view of ethics on others

I remember you... you are the one who claims he doesnt cheat on his taxes.. you must think you are going to heaven for that:)

But regardless you do not represent the majority of the  DDF community

[elit]

I remember you... you are the one who claims he doesnt cheat on his taxes.. you must think you are going to heaven for that:)

But regardless you do not representing the  DDF community

Sorry wrong person.
Again stop projecting your views on the rest of ddf. You have been on this forum for 3 months. ..

[dealfinder85]

Your point about Shulchan Aruch harav is taken and i correct it.  second your "link" is not a hyperlink.

I find it very shocking that after this forum has embraced fabricating CC forums and other countless forms of fraud and even more so "grey" lines in regard to company policy's , MS and many more. Is now on a high horse when similar practice is under investigation .

such a ridiculous comparison
"similar practice"

[yitrap]

Your point about Shulchan Aruch harav is taken and i correct it.  second your "link" is not a hyperlink.

I find it very shocking that after this forum has embraced fabricating CC forums and other countless forms of fraud and even more so "grey" lines in regard to company policy's , MS and many more. Is now on a high horse when similar practice is under investigation .

Can someone quote Dan's post from the whole "for sale, my soul"thread

[ADG]

Sorry wrong person.
Again stop projecting your views on the rest of ddf. You have been on this forum for 3 months. ..

not true ... and there are countless posts of evidence to back my claim... in fact i just saw one today:)
Sorry if that offends you but its common practice around here...