Author Topic: Planned Parenthood  (Read 4457 times)

Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2015, 11:41:29 PM »
The heter for a sick person to eat on Yom Kippur is not a "special dispensation". It's a drasha from וחי בהם, same as any situation of פיקוח נפש.

My point essentially was that there really are no "special dispensations". A heter is either based on a lenient opinion or a clear halacha. (based on the determination of a rov.)

Offline ayman

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2015, 02:39:57 AM »
I believe if you truly believe in your G-D and use the common sense G-D gave all of us you will have your simple answer without asking anyone.

How about we get back you your original question. PP is set up so anyone for any reason can get an abortion. In many religions including Judaism abortions for the sake of convenience is not allowed. Are we good so far? Since most conservatives claim to be religious this is why they are against PP. Does that make sense?
What happened to separation of Church and State?

Live and let Live.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2015, 06:02:03 AM »
What happened to separation of Church and State?
Conservatives don't believe that.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline aygart

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2015, 10:07:18 AM »
What happened to separation of Church and State?

Live and let Live.
FInd that in the constitution
Liberals don't believe in freedom of religion.
which is in the constitution. FTFY
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline abo456

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2015, 06:17:14 PM »
What happened to separation of Church and State?

Live and let Live.

The real question is where to draw the line between religious freedom and fundamental right/wrongs in society. Is banning abortion forcing Christian values on non-Christians? Religion aside, some people could say abortion is murder regardless what religion and is equally as wrong as murder and should be criminal.

You could apply the "what happened to separation of church and state" question to polygamy. By making polygamy illegal in the US are we restricting religious freedom of the fundamentalist mormons? By making child marriage illegal are we restricting the religious freedom of Muslims?

Just for the record I'm pro choice. If someone has no interest in maintaining a healthy pregnancy or wanting to be a parent, u shouldn't force a child to be born into such a dire situation.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2015, 06:27:36 PM »
What happened to separation of Church and State?

Live and let Live.
Exactly, let live and don't snuff out a life
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2015, 06:36:26 PM »
Exactly, let live and don't snuff out a life
Sharp one (and true).

Offline abo456

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2015, 06:41:04 PM »
Exactly, let live and don't snuff out a life

If the mother is pregnant and doesn't want pregnancy to get in the way of her drinking and recreational drug use, is it right to knowingly force this child to be born with physical and mental handicaps? Or into an abusive home life of people who never wanted to be parents, only for the child to be saved by a cycle of foster homes and an underfunded child protection agency? What if the life "saved" is one of near certain suffering and hardship?

Really I would like to understand the point of view from a pro-lifer.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2015, 06:45:08 PM »
If the mother is pregnant and doesn't want pregnancy to get in the way of her drinking and recreational drug use, is it right to knowingly force this child to be born with physical and mental handicaps? Or into an abusive home life of people who never wanted to be parents, only for the child to be saved by a cycle of foster homes and an underfunded child protection agency? What if the life "saved" is one of near certain suffering and hardship?

Really I would like to understand the point of view from a pro-lifer.
What about a child already born? Would you say the same thing, that she can kill her child because otherwise he'll grow up in an abusive home etc. etc.? Of course not, because a parent's irresponsibility isn't a pardon for murder. So, if a fetus is a life, the same would hold sway. Future recklessness on the parent's part doesn't justify taking a life.

Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2015, 07:39:58 PM »
What about a child already born? Would you say the same thing, that she can kill her child because otherwise he'll grow up in an abusive home etc. etc.? Of course not, because a parent's irresponsibility isn't a pardon for murder. So, if a fetus is a life, the same would hold sway. Future recklessness on the parent's part doesn't justify taking a life.

"If a fetus is a life". This is a big "if".

Christianity says it is, Judaism implies that it is a "potential life" but not life itself until the head emerges from the birth canal. (Killing a fetus is still prohibited regardless.)

Science is too politicized to give an unbiased opinion.

Offline abo456

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2015, 09:34:09 PM »
What about a child already born? Would you say the same thing, that she can kill her child because otherwise he'll grow up in an abusive home etc. etc.? Of course not, because a parent's irresponsibility isn't a pardon for murder. So, if a fetus is a life, the same would hold sway. Future recklessness on the parent's part doesn't justify taking a life.

good counter point, i never thought of that argument

going back to the original discussion about planned parenthood and the attacks by republicans: aside from the moral arguments around PP, the republicans also want to completely defund PP because it is being "double funded".  while yes, there may be less public funding for PP in the future, since the affordable care act now mandates that birth control, cervical and breast cancer screenings, prenatal care, reproductive counseling ,etc. will be free of charge for those with insurance so these services will now be free at hospitals and private clinics.  However, there are still a lot of people without insurance that this does not cover (for many people, the tax for not having insurance is 1/10 the cost of buying insurance off the exchange) who may depend on PP for health services. And btw PP does in fact provide services other than abortion. Most hospitals (at least here in CA) offer abortion procedures and also most nonprofit hospitals receive funding from local property taxes. So whether or not you defund PP, tax dollars will still be supporting facilities that offer abortions.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2015, 09:56:30 PM »
Science is too politicized to give an unbiased opinion.
Nothing to do with politics, science can not, and does not, deal with questions of right and wrong, that's just not what science does.
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2015, 10:37:06 PM »
Nothing to do with politics, science can not, and does not, deal with questions of right and wrong, that's just not what science does.

Science can offer an opinion regarding the status of a fetus, whether or not to consider it a live human being. (I.e, does it have any feeling etc?). Right and wrong is for everyone else to decide.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2015, 10:52:58 PM »
Science can offer an opinion regarding the status of a fetus, whether or not to consider it a live human being. (I.e, does it have any feeling etc?). Right and wrong is for everyone else to decide.
That depends on how you define a live human being. There is no point at which the fetus can not be said to be alive. There is no real argument over the scientific facts, science contributed everything it can to this debate, now it's an ethical debate over how to interpret the facts.
Curiosity made the cat smarter.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2015, 10:57:14 PM »
That depends on how you define a live human being. There is no point at which the fetus can not be said to be alive. There is no real argument over the scientific facts, science contributed everything it can to this debate, now it's an ethical debate over how to interpret the facts.
Exactly. Science can tell us only what exists at what point but not whether it's "a life" because whether or not it's "a life" is a religious/philosophical question and not a scientific one.