Author Topic: Planned Parenthood  (Read 8223 times)

Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2015, 06:41:47 PM »
According to your link the answer is pretty simple and spot on.

This applies to an abortion, as well. A fetus is a potential life, so we are not allowed to kill a fetus. However, if the fetus is endangering the mother's life and the only way to protect the mother is by taking the life of the fetus, then we must do so.

However, this is all only as long as the fetus is a life-in-potential. Once the baby's head has emerged from the birth canal, s/he has become a full-fledged human being of the same status as the mother. Even though the mother has a family to take care of and has proven herself viable and valuable, we consider this a matter of one life versus another. At that point, we can't give precedent to either life. Life, according to our tradition, is not something to which you can apply relative values.

It's far from simple. What does "life-in-potential" mean? What law does one transgress by killing a life-in-potential?

Judaism most certainly does not consider life from conception.

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2015, 06:46:12 PM »

Judaism most certainly does not consider life from conception.
Some say 40 days after conception
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2015, 06:48:21 PM »
It's far from simple. What does "life-in-potential" mean? What law does one transgress by killing a life-in-potential?

Judaism most certainly does not consider life from conception.
You are confusing two issues. Life-in-potential is talking about mother VS child/fetus.

This part is pretty simple to me: A fetus is a potential life, so we are not allowed to kill a fetus.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2015, 06:51:26 PM »
Some say 40 days after conception
Is there a point where everyone in Judaism agrees you are not allowed to kill a fetus. That could 1,3 or 6 months.
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Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2015, 06:52:46 PM »
You are confusing two issues. Life-in-potential is talking about mother VS child/fetus.

This part is pretty simple to me: A fetus is a potential life, so we are not allowed to kill a fetus.

We know that Judaism prohibits the killing of a fetus. The question is under what circumstances may one abort a fetus. If a Jew kills a fetus, Jewish law does not categorize it as murder.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2015, 07:01:54 PM »
We know that Judaism prohibits the killing of a fetus. The question is under what circumstances may one abort a fetus.
Did Bill Clinton write Jewish law? Are you kidding me?
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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2015, 07:02:25 PM »
Is there a point where everyone in Judaism agrees you are not allowed to kill a fetus. That could 1,3 or 6 months.
Other than cases of danger to the life of the mother I am pretty sure that at least the vast majority agree after 40 days. I am unfamiliar with the aforementioned opinion that it would be permissible for psychological reasons.
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Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2015, 07:02:44 PM »
Is there a point where everyone in Judaism agrees you are not allowed to kill a fetus. That could 1,3 or 6 months.

Let me clarify: Judaism prohibits the killing of a fetus. This begins immediately from conception. Even the pill known as "plan B" is prohibited. However, Jewish law has a concept known as a "Heter".

A "Heter" is a special waiver (so to speak) for an individual to do something which is normally prohibited. For example, a person who is very ill may eat on Yom Kippur.

Because Jewish law doesn't see a fetus as an actual life, there are various cases in which one may receive a "Heter" to abort.

For example, a woman may receive a "heter" to use a plan B pill if she was raped.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2015, 07:06:48 PM »
A "Heter" is a special waiver (so to speak) for an individual to do something which is normally prohibited. For example, a person who is very ill may eat on Yom Kippur.

Because Jewish law doesn't see a fetus as an actual life, there are various cases in which one may receive a "Heter" to abort.
Let me boil it down to two words I have heard all to often "special dispensation". What a bunch of BS.
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Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2015, 07:07:36 PM »
Other than cases of danger to the life of the mother I am pretty sure that at least the vast majority agree after 40 days. I am unfamiliar with the aforementioned opinion that it would be permissible for psychological reasons.

Here is a pretty good summary: http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html?mobile=yes

There is a machlokes on the matter of psychological issues or a child with severe illness.

Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2015, 07:08:32 PM »
Let me boil it down to two words I have heard all to often "special dispensation". What a bunch of BS.

So you believe that one who is ill should not be allowed to eat on Yom Kippur because "special dispensation" is BS?

I should also point out that in many cases a "heter" is given based on a lenient authority who permits that particular thing.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 07:15:53 PM by zale »

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2015, 07:18:57 PM »
So you believe that one who is ill should not be allowed to eat on Yom Kippur because "special dispensation" is BS?
I believe if you truly believe in your G-D and use the common sense G-D gave all of us you will have your simple answer without asking anyone.

How about we get back you your original question. PP is set up so anyone for any reason can get an abortion. In many religions including Judaism abortions for the sake of convenience is not allowed. Are we good so far? Since most conservatives claim to be religious this is why they are against PP. Does that make sense?
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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2015, 07:22:34 PM »
Here is a pretty good summary: http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html?mobile=yes

There is a machlokes on the matter of psychological issues or a child with severe illness.
The only psychological issues discussed are potentially suicidal ones.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2015, 07:39:37 PM »
Other than cases of danger to the life of the mother I am pretty sure that at least the vast majority agree after 40 days. I am unfamiliar with the aforementioned opinion that it would be permissible for psychological reasons.
You are correct. After 40 days it is assur unless there's a pressing need (such as endangering the life of the mother). A non Jew is forbidden on pain of death after 40 days as well. Before that it is not considered a life.

Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2015, 07:39:39 PM »
I believe if you truly believe in your G-D and use the common sense G-D gave all of us you will have your simple answer without asking anyone.

Common sense and law never belong in the same sentence. Jewish law is not based on common sense, but on G-D's desire. Is it common sense that if a breadcrumb falls into your soup on passover the entire pot is now forbidden?

Common sense told me that I can park my car in front of my house. I got a ticket anyway, because the law does not allow it.

Quote
How about we get back you your original question. PP is set up so anyone for any reason can get an abortion. In many religions including Judaism abortions for the sake of convenience is not allowed. Are we good so far? Since most conservatives claim to be religious this is why they are against PP. Does that make sense?

1. Are Conservatives only upset at the abortions that are for the sake of convenience?
2. Are Conservatives invoking their religion to make their claim?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 07:43:16 PM by zale »

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2015, 07:48:25 PM »
Common sense and law never belong in the same sentence. Jewish law is not based on common sense, but on G-D's desire. Is it common sense that if a breadcrumb falls into your soup on passover the entire pot is now forbidden?

Common sense told me that I can park my car in front of my house. I got a ticket anyway, because the law does not allow it.
Save that for tomorrow.  :)

1. Are Conservatives only upset at the abortions that are for the sake of convenience?
2. Are Conservatives invoking their religion to make their claim?
1. No
2. Yes
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Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2015, 07:48:31 PM »
You are correct. After 40 days it is assur unless there's a pressing need (such as endangering the life of the mother). A non Jew is forbidden on pain of death after 40 days as well. Before that it is not considered a life.

There is no Rav that will outright give a heter to use the Plan B pill unless it is a very serious case. Lechatchila the issur is from day 1.

Offline CS1

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2015, 07:57:05 PM »
There is no Rav that will outright give a heter to use the Plan B pill unless it is a very serious case. Lechatchila the issur is from day 1.

officially, plan b is before day one. 
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Offline zale

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2015, 07:59:08 PM »
officially, plan b is before day one.

Essentially from right after relations.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2015, 08:33:07 PM »
There is no Rav that will outright give a heter to use the Plan B pill unless it is a very serious case. Lechatchila the issur is from day 1.
You're probably right. All I'm saying is what I know-the ikkar hadin.