Author Topic: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem  (Read 14495 times)

Offline Aj3042

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2015, 03:01:01 PM »
I am not talking about just this thread. Now that you brought it up is there one spokesman for Judaism?
Yes. He died thousands of years ago and his name was Moses.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2015, 03:12:02 PM »
I have many that help me follow. Since it is Friday I am due for a smart a$$ remark. I hate to disappoint but let me try this. All this back and forth ripping on each other and the rabbi's did you ever stop and think what this says about your religion to an outsider if that matters at all to you?
To answer this completely outside of the context of this thread, for the most part Judaism as a religion doesn't care what outsiders think about it. There is a concept of Chillul Hashem, which may - in certain limited circumstances - extend to something not otherwise strictly regulated by Jewish law. But even that concept is primarily an internal one (ie what other Jews will think), that is also extended externally.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2015, 03:13:35 PM »
To answer this completely outside of the context of this thread, for the most part Judaism as a religion doesn't care what outsiders think about it.
I can see why.  ;)
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Offline Aj3042

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2015, 03:18:44 PM »
To answer this completely outside of the context of this thread, for the most part Judaism as a religion doesn't care what outsiders think about it. There is a concept of Chillul Hashem, which may - in certain limited circumstances - extend to something not otherwise strictly regulated by Jewish law. But even that concept is primarily an internal one (ie what other Jews will think), that is also extended externally.
This is absolutely right. Well said.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #94 on: July 31, 2015, 03:25:17 PM »
To answer this completely outside of the context of this thread, for the most part Judaism as a religion doesn't care what outsiders think about it. There is a concept of Chillul Hashem, which may - in certain limited circumstances - extend to something not otherwise strictly regulated by Jewish law. But even that concept is primarily an internal one (ie what other Jews will think), that is also extended externally.

This is absolutely right. Well said.

As was mentioned by Zale in the ethical thread:

Taken from OU.org:

The third category is what we typically mean when we talk about chillul Hashem: when someone who should know better acts in a fashion that is perceived to be beneath him. In a Talmudic discussion of what would constitute a chillul Hashem, Rav said it would be if he didnít pay his butcher on time (Yoma 86a). Thatís not such a grievous thing but coming from Rav, it reflects badly on Torah scholars. Each of us at our own level is responsible to strive to act upward and not stoop down.

The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, ďThatís how Jews act?Ē or ďThatís how religious people act?


For some reason the more yeshivish people I've discussed CH with always leave that part out, and try to assert that CH is either solely for Jews, or only regarding violating halacha.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #95 on: July 31, 2015, 03:30:23 PM »
It's MAINLY for Jews-there's no question about this, it's open pesukim and Gemaras. There is an extension of it, under limited circumstances, to non Jews. Nobody said otherwise.
And for future reference OU.org isn't exactly one of those sources high up there. Gemara, rishonim, shu"a and poskim is a better bet.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2015, 03:33:39 PM »
It's MAINLY for Jews-there's no question about this, it's open pesukim and Gemaras. There is an extension of it, under limited circumstances, to non Jews. Nobody said otherwise.
And for future reference OU.org isn't exactly one of those sources high up there. Gemara, rishonim, shu"a and poskim is a better bet.

Source?

And like Wikipedia, OU.org provides sources.

Quote
This mitzvah applies to both men and women in all times and places. It is discussed in the Talmud in the tractates of Yoma (86a) and Sanhedrin (74a-b), and is codified in the Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh Deíah 157. This mitzvah is #63 of the 365 negative mitzvos in the Rambamís Sefer HaMitzvos and #155 of the 194 negative mitzvos that can be observed today in the Chofetz Chaimís Sefer HaMitzvos HaKatzar.


Offline Aj3042

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2015, 03:39:25 PM »
Source?

And like Wikipedia, OU.org provides sources.
Open Gemara at the end of perek Ben sorer umoreh in Sanhedrin-the ikar din of chillul hashem is only in front of 10 Jews. This has been discussed at length already. None of the sources you quoted have anything to do with the particular point we're discussing of Jews vs non Jews.
Time for me to check out (for real this time) have a good shabbos.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2015, 03:42:06 PM »
Time for me to check out (for real this time) have a good shabbos.
Enjoy!
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Offline avremie

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2015, 03:48:51 PM »


Mivazeh taldmid chacham? LOL seriously? Who was mevazeh him? Me, by saying that his visit was political? Are you seriously naive enough to believe it wasn't? When did stating the obvious about political rabannus become mevazeh a talmid chacham? In fact I went out of my way to say he was probably (though I don't know him) a talmid chahcam and a fine man. That doesn't mean that the earth he walks on is holy or that his political hospital visit was apolitical, Please, by realistic.

You went out of your way to say he was a talmid chacham. LOL.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2015, 03:55:41 PM »
As was mentioned by Zale in the ethical thread:

For some reason the more yeshivish people I've discussed CH with always leave that part out, and try to assert that CH is either solely for Jews, or only regarding violating halacha.
In what way did I leave that out - I specifically mentioned it. My point was more that this principle doesn't extend to scenarios where it infringes on other aspects of halacha - something that the more modern people always leave out (I don't actually believe that, I'm just mirroring your similar generalization, in case that wasn't clear).

Try not to lump me in with those who have co-opted my arguments ;)

Offline Aaaron

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2015, 03:57:07 PM »
Open Gemara at the end of perek Ben sorer umoreh in Sanhedrin-the ikar din of chillul hashem is only in front of 10 Jews. This has been discussed at length already. None of the sources you quoted have anything to do with the particular point we're discussing of Jews vs non Jews.
Time for me to check out (for real this time) have a good shabbos.

The Rambam (in Sefer HaMitzvos) lists three types of Chillul Hashem.  The first is refusing to martyr yourself when you're supposed to.  THAT is the one (of three) being discussed in Sanhedrin at the end of Ben Sorer.

The third one is the one we've been referring to; the one referenced in Yoma, and there is no indication that it only applies in front of Yidden.  So again I ask... source?

ETA:  Have a great shabbos!

Offline Aaaron

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2015, 03:59:40 PM »
In what way did I leave that out - I specifically mentioned it. My point was more that this principle doesn't extend to scenarios where it infringes on other aspects of halacha - something that the more modern people always leave out (I don't actually believe that, I'm just mirroring your similar generalization, in case that wasn't clear).

Try not to lump me in with those who have co-opted my arguments ;)

I apologize if I misunderstood/misinterpreted what you were saying.  I thought you were trying to minimize the concept of CH and overly-limit its scope.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #103 on: July 31, 2015, 04:12:29 PM »
I apologize if I misunderstood/misinterpreted what you were saying.  I thought you were trying to minimize the concept of CH and overly-limit its scope.
Lol, and I am, just not as much as others. The third category is the trickiest one. If halacha has a clear stance on something, either to do it or not to do it, this category doesn't apply.

My answer to CM was specifically about his question "did you ever stop and think what this says about your religion to an outsider if that matters at all to you?". We don't care about what outsiders think when the stance is clear in halacha. But that's not to say that we never, ever care, just that it's limited.

This would be in contrast to Christianity, which has at times changed to meet its adherents' - and sometimes the wider world's - evolving views on a variety of topics.

Offline good sam

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Re: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem
« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2015, 04:39:36 PM »
Yigal Amir shot rubber bullets.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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