Author Topic: So Called Orthodox Jew Stabs 6 at parade in Jerusalem (Read 33252 times)

skyguy918 · « **Reply #100 on:** July 31, 2015, 03:55:41 PM »

Quote from: Aaaron on July 31, 2015, 03:25:17 PM

As was mentioned by Zale in the ethical thread:

For some reason the more yeshivish people I've discussed CH with always leave that part out, and try to assert that CH is either solely for Jews, or only regarding violating halacha.

In what way did I leave that out - I specifically mentioned it. My point was more that this principle doesn't extend to scenarios where it infringes on other aspects of halacha - something that the more modern people always leave out (I don't actually believe that, I'm just mirroring your similar generalization, in case that wasn't clear).

Try not to lump me in with those who have co-opted my arguments

Aaaron · « **Reply #101 on:** July 31, 2015, 03:57:07 PM »

Quote from: Aj3042 on July 31, 2015, 03:39:25 PM

Open Gemara at the end of perek Ben sorer umoreh in Sanhedrin-the ikar din of chillul hashem is only in front of 10 Jews. This has been discussed at length already. None of the sources you quoted have anything to do with the particular point we're discussing of Jews vs non Jews.
Time for me to check out (for real this time) have a good shabbos.

The Rambam (in Sefer HaMitzvos) lists three types of Chillul Hashem. The first is refusing to martyr yourself when you're supposed to. THAT is the one (of three) being discussed in Sanhedrin at the end of Ben Sorer.

The third one is the one we've been referring to; the one referenced in Yoma, and there is no indication that it only applies in front of Yidden. So again I ask... source?

ETA: Have a great shabbos!

Aaaron · « **Reply #102 on:** July 31, 2015, 03:59:40 PM »

Quote from: skyguy918 on July 31, 2015, 03:55:41 PM

In what way did I leave that out - I specifically mentioned it. My point was more that this principle doesn't extend to scenarios where it infringes on other aspects of halacha - something that the more modern people always leave out (I don't actually believe that, I'm just mirroring your similar generalization, in case that wasn't clear).

Try not to lump me in with those who have co-opted my arguments

I apologize if I misunderstood/misinterpreted what you were saying. I thought you were trying to minimize the concept of CH and overly-limit its scope.

skyguy918 · « **Reply #103 on:** July 31, 2015, 04:12:29 PM »

Quote from: Aaaron on July 31, 2015, 03:59:40 PM

I apologize if I misunderstood/misinterpreted what you were saying. I thought you were trying to minimize the concept of CH and overly-limit its scope.

Lol, and I am, just not as much as others. The third category is the trickiest one. If halacha has a clear stance on something, either to do it or not to do it, this category doesn't apply.

My answer to CM was specifically about his question "did you ever stop and think what this says about your religion to an outsider if that matters at all to you?". We don't care about what outsiders think when the stance is clear in halacha. But that's not to say that we never, ever care, just that it's limited.

This would be in contrast to Christianity, which has at times changed to meet its adherents' - and sometimes the wider world's - evolving views on a variety of topics.

good sam · « **Reply #104 on:** July 31, 2015, 04:39:36 PM »

Yigal Amir shot rubber bullets.

grodnoking · « **Reply #105 on:** August 02, 2015, 11:13:57 AM »

And now he's a murderer

sky121 · « **Reply #106 on:** August 02, 2015, 12:15:52 PM »

Awful. She was only 16 years old. :/

Shauly101 · « **Reply #107 on:** August 02, 2015, 12:44:37 PM »

so sick at such a young age ouch!

David Smith · « **Reply #108 on:** August 02, 2015, 01:03:57 PM »

I'm guessing she wasn't there to show support for her parents.

gavhaller · « **Reply #109 on:** August 02, 2015, 02:02:18 PM »

Quote from: David Smith on August 02, 2015, 01:03:57 PM

I'm guessing she wasn't there to show support for her parents.

What is your problem

Aj3042 · « **Reply #110 on:** August 02, 2015, 02:13:05 PM »

Quote from: Shauly101 on August 02, 2015, 12:44:37 PM

so sick at such a young age ouch!

Perversion is not an exclusive right of adults.

Dan · « **Reply #111 on:** August 02, 2015, 02:16:18 PM »

You're talking about someone murdered in cold blood.
You people disgust me.

I'm not saying Jerusalem is a proper venue for a gay pride parade, but justifying the actions of a murderer and making comments about the dead? Vile.

yhaller14 · « **Reply #112 on:** August 02, 2015, 02:18:20 PM »

She wasn't gay. She was there to support her lgbt freinds

Dan · « **Reply #113 on:** August 02, 2015, 02:19:03 PM »

Quote from: yhaller14 on August 02, 2015, 02:18:20 PM

She wasn't gay. She was there to support her lgbt freinds

I couldn't care less if she was or wasn't. Doesn't change a thing.

gavhaller · « **Reply #114 on:** August 02, 2015, 02:19:36 PM »

Quote from: Aj3042 on August 02, 2015, 02:13:05 PM

Perversion is not an exclusive right of adults.

You, my friend, are an ass hole.

Aj3042 · « **Reply #115 on:** August 02, 2015, 02:22:35 PM »

Quote from: Dan on August 02, 2015, 02:16:18 PM

You're talking about someone murdered in cold blood.
You people disgust me.

I'm not saying Jerusalem is a proper venue for a gay pride parade, but justifying the actions of a murderer and making comments about the dead? Vile.

Source? I don't recall any serious justification of his actions, definitely not on my part.

Quote from: gavhaller on August 02, 2015, 02:19:36 PM

You, my friend, are an ass hole.

You're a great friend!

sky121 · « **Reply #116 on:** August 02, 2015, 02:52:09 PM »

Quote from: Dan on August 02, 2015, 02:19:03 PM

I couldn't care less if she was or wasn't. Doesn't change a thing.

+ 1

It's actually a bit scary to read some of the comments on this thread. I'm quick to remind myself the actions of one Jew doesn't speak for the Jewish population but it almost seems like there are quite a few here who don't think what he did was SO terrible and are closer to justifying it than being disgusted by him.

The holocaust is proof that people can be convinced of anything. It's scary to see what some are close to believing is acceptable in the name of religion.

aygart · « **Reply #117 on:** August 02, 2015, 04:35:18 PM »

Quote from: aygart on July 31, 2015, 06:45:22 PM

I didn't find anything worth commenting on. This was the same ones who always feel that to mindlessly attack and vilify or sick up for crazies is somehow more frum. There wasn't even an intellectual argument to make. Is there really a point in arguing with someone who is praising the act of stabbing people?

ah · « **Reply #118 on:** August 02, 2015, 05:15:22 PM »

Quote from: Dan on August 02, 2015, 02:16:18 PM

You people disgust me.

ChaimMoskowitz · « **Reply #119 on:** August 02, 2015, 10:40:41 PM »

Quote from: sky121 on August 02, 2015, 02:52:09 PM

It's scary to see what some are close to believing is acceptable in the name of religion.

There will always be those who twist religion to justify their words and actions.