Author Topic: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer  (Read 31592 times)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #260 on: August 16, 2015, 11:37:02 PM »
Don't you see how ludicrous that sounds?
This coming from someone who refuses to see the other point of view in every thread.

Do you know what apartheid means?
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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #261 on: August 16, 2015, 11:41:45 PM »
How foolish. He doesn't hate Jews because he said so? Do you know Eichmann said the same thing at his trial (as well as countless other Nazis in Nuremberg)? What the judges respond? "Your actions don't support your claims of your beliefs".
Seriously this is bordering on insanity already. You want me to believe they a guy who's done so much bad is in fact good BECAUSE HE WROTE SO HIMSELF? Don't you see how ludicrous that sounds?
SO bring some facts to back yourself up. It is as simple as that.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #262 on: August 16, 2015, 11:43:04 PM »
SO bring some facts to back yourself up. It is as simple as that.
Please stop it. I just spit out my pop.
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Offline grodnoking

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #263 on: August 16, 2015, 11:50:46 PM »
Please stop it. I just spit out my pop.
I cant tell... which side are you on?
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline Aj3042

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #264 on: August 16, 2015, 11:55:56 PM »
SO bring some facts to back yourself up. It is as simple as that.
Ok. Read his book. Or just think of the existence of his book. Someone who has dedicated his life to being anti Israel and constantly condemning them-not anti China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or North Korea-but anti Israel is obviously blinded by hatred. Someone who calls Hamas a "legitimate political force" is also anti Israel, just as someone who calls Al Qeada the same is anti American. All the proof is there, you just got to open your mind to stop being so "open minded" (read: "liberal and enlightened") all the time and recognize your enemy as such.

Either way I've made my point and I don't have patience to keep arguing it so I'll end off here. As I've mentioned before, I've yet to meet an intelligent and accomplished frum Jew who's mind is pliable enough to be indoctrinated by such stupidity. I'm not sure if it's a demographic thing, that DDF users are younger, more teach savvy, and so of course way smarter and more liberal than the average frum guy-or maybe it's a Lubavitch thing-I don't know. What I do know is that in the real world of real people (not people hiding behind computer screens in their basements or wherever) the liberalness and love for ones enemies espoused here is mocked at best, and battled against at worst.

"Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it". I'm afraid some here have made their unfortunate destinies quite clear.

ETA: thums up to the unique clear thinkers here (pun intended) who seem to be smarter and less open to indoctrination than most others.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 11:59:42 PM by Aj3042 »

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #265 on: August 16, 2015, 11:56:26 PM »
JC reminds me of those guys.

Blacks are good at basketball, but they're all a bunch of lazy filthy etc..
What a nice way to preface a book about everything he hates about Israel.
Visibly Jewish

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #266 on: August 17, 2015, 12:05:34 AM »
Ok. Read his book. Or just think of the existence of his book.
Again not one fact you present. I man you claim with so much hate and you can't produce one quote. If I were you I would quit posting like you said.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #267 on: August 17, 2015, 12:06:52 AM »
JC reminds me of those guys.

Blacks are good at basketball, but they're all a bunch of lazy filthy etc..
What a nice way to preface a book about everything he hates about Israel.
Where can I find the preface to his book?
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #268 on: August 17, 2015, 12:10:35 AM »
Q: What has been the importance of your own faith in your continued interest in peace in the Middle East?
A: As a Christian, I worship the Prince of Peace. One of my preeminent commitments has been to bring peace to the people who live in the Holy Land. I made my best efforts as president and still have this as a high priority.

Q: A common theme in your years of Middle East diplomacy has been that leaders on both sides have often been more open to discussion and change in private than in public. Do you think that's still the case?
A: Yes. This is why private and intense negotiations can be successful. More accurately, however, my premise has been that the general public (Jewish, Christian, and Muslim) are more eager for peace than their political leaders. For instance, a recent poll done by the Hebrew University in Jerusalem showed that 58% of Israelis and 81% of the Palestinians favor a comprehensive settlement similar to the Roadmap for Peace or the Saudi proposal adopted by all 23 Arab nations and recently promoted by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Tragically, there have been no substantive peace talks during the past six years.

Q: How have the war in Iraq and the increased strength of Iran (and the declarations of their leaders against Israel) changed the conditions of the Israel-Palestine question?
A: Other existing or threatened conflicts in the region greatly increase the importance of Israel's having peace agreements with its neighbors, to minimize overall Arab animosity toward both Israel and the United States and reduce the threat of a broader conflict.

Q: Your use of the term "apartheid" has been a lightning rod in the response to your book. Could you explain your choice? Were you surprised by the reaction?
A: The book is about Palestine, the occupied territories, and not about Israel. Forced segregation in the West Bank and terrible oppression of the Palestinians create a situation accurately described by the word. I made it plain in the text that this abuse is not based on racism, but on the desire of a minority of Israelis to confiscate and colonize Palestinian land. This violates the basic humanitarian premises on which the nation of Israel was founded. My surprise is that most critics of the book have ignored the facts about Palestinian persecution and its proposals for future peace and resorted to personal attacks on the author. No one could visit the occupied territories and deny that the book is accurate.

Q: You write in the book that "the peace process does not have a life of its own; it is not self-sustaining." What would you recommend that the next American president do to revive it?
A: I would not want to wait two more years. It is encouraging that President George W. Bush has announced that peace in the Holy Land will be a high priority for his administration during the next two years. On her January trip to the region, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has called for early U.S.-Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. She has recommended the 2002 offer of the Arab nations as a foundation for peace: full recognition of Israel based on a return to its internationally recognized borders. This offer is compatible with official U.S. Government policy, previous agreements approved by Israeli governments in 1978 and 1993, and with the International Quartet's "roadmap for peace." My book proposes that, through negotiated land swaps, this "green line" border be modified to permit a substantial number of Israelis settlers to remain in Palestine. With strong U.S. pressure, backed by the U.N., Russia, and the European Community, Israelis and Palestinians would have to come to the negotiating table.

1/18/2007
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Online aygart

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #269 on: August 17, 2015, 12:11:00 AM »
Ok. Read his book. Or just think of the existence of his book. Someone who has dedicated his life to being anti Israel and constantly condemning them-not anti China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or North Korea-but anti Israel is obviously blinded by hatred. Someone who calls Hamas a "legitimate political force" is also anti Israel, just as someone who calls Al Qeada the same is anti American. All the proof is there, you just got to open your mind to stop being so "open minded" (read: "liberal and enlightened") all the time and recognize your enemy as such.

Either way I've made my point and I don't have patience to keep arguing it so I'll end off here. As I've mentioned before, I've yet to meet an intelligent and accomplished frum Jew who's mind is pliable enough to be indoctrinated by such stupidity. I'm not sure if it's a demographic thing, that DDF users are younger, more teach savvy, and so of course way smarter and more liberal than the average frum guy-or maybe it's a Lubavitch thing-I don't know. What I do know is that in the real world of real people (not people hiding behind computer screens in their basements or wherever) the liberalness and love for ones enemies espoused here is mocked at best, and battled against at worst.

"Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it". I'm afraid some here have made their unfortunate destinies quite clear.

ETA: thums up to the unique clear thinkers here (pun intended) who seem to be smarter and less open to indoctrination than most others.
As I wrote, to tell someone who is not paying attention to what Carter says, as you imply you have, that they should read his book and that just the existence of his book is a problem without bringing even one specific argument is ludicrous. Give one clear and coherent example. I have noproblem believing that he is a bigot. I just do not have the facts. I never paid attention to anything Carter had to say about ANYTHING and I cetainly willnot make the effort to read a book of his. Just give one coherent example. Or is it that you do not have an example or that you are unable to be clear and coherent?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #270 on: August 17, 2015, 12:13:53 AM »
I can see why this
Quote
The book describes the abominable oppression and persecution in the occupied Palestinian territories, with a rigid system of required passes and strict segregation between Palestine's citizens and Jewish settlers in the West Bank. An enormous imprisonment wall is now under construction, snaking through what is left of Palestine, to encompass more and more land for Israeli settlers. In many ways, this is more oppressive than what black people lived under in South Africa during apartheid. I have made it clear that the motivation is not racism but the desire of a minority of Israelis to confiscate and colonise choice sites in Palestine, and then to forcefully suppress any objections from the displaced citizens. Obviously, I condemn acts of terrorism or violence against innocent civilians, and I present information about the casualties on both sides.
and this
Quote
There is no humane or legal justification for the way the Israeli Defense Forces are conducting this war. Israeli bombs, missiles, and artillery have pulverized large parts of Gaza, including thousands of homes, schools, and hospitals. More than 250,000 people have been displaced from their homes in Gaza. HundredsofPalestinian noncombatants have been killed. Much of Gaza has lost access to water and electricity completely. This is a humanitarian catastrophe.

There is never an excuse for deliberate attacks on civilians in conflict. These are war crimes. This is true for both sides. Hamas’s indiscriminate targeting of Israeli civilians is equally unacceptable. However, three Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinian rockets, while an overwhelming majority of the 1,600 Palestinians killed have been civilians, including more than 330 children. The need for international judicial proceedings to investigate and end these violations of international law should be taken very seriously.
Would be considered going over the line. He is clearly accusing Israel of deliberately targeting civilians which goes against any facts I have seen. The most I have seen Israel accused of seriously was not doing enough to avoid civilian deaths, but to say they deliberately targeted civilians shows more than simply favoring the underdog.
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #271 on: August 17, 2015, 01:03:06 AM »
He says Hamas can and should be trusted. Their stated mission is the murder of Jewish people. My cousins - left wing liberals - live on the border of Gaza, yards from the opening of "terror tunnels" created by hamas for the explicit purpose of murdering them. You'll excuse them for thinking that sounds anti semitic.

He maintains that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is worse than south Africa's treatment of blacks under the apartheid regime. That is so demonstrably false by any and every measure, it begs the question, how can any rational person not driven by hate (average Joe shmoes who are only party to network news excluded) think that?

In the book I mentioned previously, Yehuda avner states explicitly that the Israeli cabinet viewed him as likely anti semitic, and tried to appeal to his religious sensitivities to get him to support Israel.

As for the camp David accords, they came about after initial negotiations between sadat and begin in Jerusalem. Sadat publicly stated he'd even go to Jerusalem to seek peace, which led to his visit to Israel, speech to the kneset, and the framework for the deal which was put in place without US involvement. The negotiations which followed went against Carter's plans and wishes. He was trying to go according to the Geneva convention, and have Israel give up Sinai and the West Bank. Sadat and Begin were having none of that.

Only once they got to camp David did Carter give up and work with them. Those peace accords happened in spite of Carter, not because of him.

The accord had more to do with Egypt strategically realizing that they would be better off endearing themselves to the US than keeping their relationship with the Russians than jimmy Carter's diplomatic efforts.

In summation: yes, I agree with Dan, aygart, etc. You can support the Palestinians, side against Israel and not be anti semitic. In jimmy's case, well, it's just a tough sell.

I still don't wish him a painful death. I don't wish that on anyone. How people die is for G-d to worry about.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #272 on: August 17, 2015, 08:46:17 AM »
The negotiations which followed went against Carter's plans and wishes. He was trying to go according to the Geneva convention, and have Israel give up Sinai and the West Bank. Sadat and Begin were having none of that.
This goes against what historians say took place.
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #273 on: August 17, 2015, 08:47:36 AM »
This goes against what historians say took place.
*Even* Wikipedia lays it out pretty clearly.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #274 on: August 17, 2015, 09:02:24 AM »
*Even* Wikipedia lays it out pretty clearly.
How did the US get involved. Did it go something like Israel/Egypt were looking for a place to have the talks but the Red Roof Inn was fully booked. Sadat then says what about Carter I wonder if he has a place available.  :)

If you want a different perspective maybe read Thirteen Days in September: The Dramatic Story of the Struggle for Peace. 
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #275 on: August 17, 2015, 09:07:58 AM »
How did the US get involved. Did it go something like Israel/Egypt were looking for a place to have the talks but the Red Roof Inn was fully booked. Sadat then says what about Carter I wonder if he has a place available.  :)

If you want a different perspective maybe read Thirteen Days in September: The Dramatic Story of the Struggle for Peace.
The US was airways involved. The Arab-israeli war was used as a proxy battle between the soviets and the US.

You're looking at the story beginning in Camp David, forgetting that sadat and begin arranged the visit to Jerusalem and began negotiations in a way which shocked Carter and took him off guard, and the ensuing negotiations went against the pattern Carter wanted.

Yes, when they finally came to camp David he helped make a deal happen, but the story does not start there at all. And one could easily argue that by that point, any sitting us president could have brokered the deal.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #276 on: August 17, 2015, 09:11:53 AM »
The US was airways involved. The Arab-israeli war was used as a proxy battle between the soviets and the US.

You're looking at the story beginning in Camp David, forgetting that sadat and begin arranged the visit to Jerusalem and began negotiations in a way which shocked Carter and took him off guard, and the ensuing negotiations went against the pattern Carter wanted.

Yes, when they finally came to camp David he helped make a deal happen, but the story does not start there at all. And one could easily argue that by that point, any sitting us president could have brokered the deal.
Lets not rewrite history again. Carter efforts started the day he took office. The breakthrough came when Sadat offered to go to Israel. Begin was an innocent bystander and fought this process at ever step.
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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #277 on: August 17, 2015, 09:15:29 AM »
Lets not rewrite history again. Carter efforts started the day he took office. The breakthrough came when Sadat offered to go to Israel. Begin was an innocent bystander and fought this process at ever step.
Unbelievable hogwash. He had stated publicly he was willing to give away Sinai, but not the west bank. (against the wishes of his cabinet) Carter wanted everything. Sadat, with his visit to Jerusalem - which was arranged without carter's knowledge and input - showed he was willing to go with begin's bilateral approach, and not carter's desired unilateral approach.

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #278 on: August 17, 2015, 09:25:49 AM »
Even if he did orchestrate Camp David what does that prove? Is there no other possible motive than the best interests of Israel? Can someone who is bigoted against one of the parties never broker a deal between them when he feels it is in his own best interests? Do people never become bigoted later in life? Just the mere fact that he was involved in Camp David does not erase more recent ridiculous statements of his 2 of which I quoted above.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Jimmy Carter announces he has cancer
« Reply #279 on: August 17, 2015, 09:36:31 AM »
Even if he did orchestrate Camp David what does that prove? Is there no other possible motive than the best interests of Israel? Can someone who is bigoted against one of the parties never broker a deal between them when he feels it is in his own best interests? Do people never become bigoted later in life? Just the mere fact that he was involved in Camp David does not erase more recent ridiculous statements of his 2 of which I quoted above.
Yes someone can be a bigot and broker a peace deal. When someone disputes historic facts I have to wonder how they can be objective in the discussion. Then you have to look at everything a person had done and not just one issue. Everything I have read about Carter points to he was obsessed with getting peace for the middle east. I completely disagree with his approach and understand why many here feel his approach should be considered anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.
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