Author Topic: Swimming with Wife at empty hotel pools (Read 33121 times)

dirah · « **Reply #60 on:** February 10, 2011, 06:29:57 PM »

There is a bit if a misconception here about Tznius applying only to a place where a Yid sees, and also that Tznius is about being Machshil someone.
The Halachos of "covering up" are not limited to who sees, or if anyone sees. It applies mainly to the type of place; if it is a place that people frequent often enough, then it cannot be done even if there is no one there at the given moment. And it is not about being Machshil someone else or not; it more a statement about the Isha herself, whether she is a Tznuah or a Prutzah. [Source: Kesubos 72 with Meforshim, SHulchan Oruch E"H 115:4.]

[This might make sense logically as well. To give an extreme example: I think most of us would not appear totally Orum in a situation where there is a 1% chance that someone will be watching - unless we're in the Mikvah! Similarly (though of course not exactly the same), in a place where an Isha is supposed to be covered up, she should not be willing to take a chance that no one is there.]

Of course, what is considered to be a place that people frequent often enough is a valid question.
And my point is not to tell you what to do or not, just trying to dispel some misinformation.

dirah · « **Reply #61 on:** February 10, 2011, 06:34:54 PM »

Quote from: chuchem on February 10, 2011, 02:52:37 PM

So I asked a poisek if there might be a heter, since at the beach with only goyim a one piece bathing suit is more then normal. So maybe that takes care of the issue of "mokoim sheminhag lechasois" He is looking into it, if one can be matir.

The only Shailo I see here is why your "Posek" thinks its a Shaaloh; Mima Nafshach - if he is a Poisek then he would know that this is not a Shailoh, and if he thinks it is a Shailoh then he is not a Poisek.

chuchem · « **Reply #62 on:** February 10, 2011, 07:03:15 PM »

Quote from: dirah on February 10, 2011, 06:34:54 PM

The only Shailo I see here is why your "Posek" thinks its a Shaaloh; Mima Nafshach - if he is a Poisek then he would know that this is not a Shailoh, and if he thinks it is a Shailoh then he is not a Poisek.

I am happy you think that you are the godal hador. I asked him a Shaaloh and he said he will look into it. Actually his reaction was, he does not think its ok, but will still look into it again and let me know. Unfortunatly alot of people, even so called rabbis react exactly like you and say assur. Its no chochme to say assur, even I can do that. To learn through a injan and find a heter or see if there is anyway to be matir, thats a chochme.

dirah · « **Reply #63 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:06:03 PM »

To paraphrase:
I am happy you think that you are the world's greatest mathemetician. I asked him if 1+1 has to = 2, and he said he will look into it. Actually his reaction was, he does not think it could equal anything else, but will still look into it again and let me know. Unfortunately alot of people, even so called mathemeticians react exactly like you and say it can't equal anything else. Its no chochme to say it can't, even I can do that. To learn through a injan and find a way to make it equal something else, thats a chochme.

I think you righteous indignation is misplaced. But anyways, we'll catch up if he finds a Hetter ... i.e. never!

Mikeoracle · « **Reply #64 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:13:43 PM »

Wow, do you consider all of Shulchan Aruch and Halacha to be 1+1 or just this one halacha we are talking about???

dirah · « **Reply #65 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:17:15 PM »

Basics.... I am only talking about the issue that I quoted from Chuchem!
[You will note that I didn't suggest that the whole of mathematic is 1+1=2.]

chuchem · « **Reply #66 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:19:00 PM »

Quote from: dirah on February 10, 2011, 08:06:03 PM

To paraphrase:
I am happy you think that you are the world's greatest mathemetician. I asked him if 1+1 has to = 2, and he said he will look into it. Actually his reaction was, he does not think it could equal anything else, but will still look into it again and let me know. Unfortunately alot of people, even so called mathemeticians react exactly like you and say it can't equal anything else. Its no chochme to say it can't, even I can do that. To learn through a injan and find a way to make it equal something else, thats a chochme.

I think you righteous indignation is misplaced. But anyways, we'll catch up if he finds a Hetter ... i.e. never!

To paraphrase:

Whatever I think is right, is right. No other opinion is allowed, even if someone says he will consider it, he is wrong and the considering is just a favour. At the end of the day everyone will think like I do, as I am always right!

bosoxfan · « **Reply #67 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:20:10 PM »

1. Many times someone is viewing a live feed
2. Untznius is not something you want recorded on tape for posterity

dirah · « **Reply #68 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:22:42 PM »

Hey Chuchem,
Syag Lachuchme Shtika.
I await the results of your Shaalas Chuchem!

Mikeoracle · « **Reply #69 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:24:34 PM »

Quote from: dirah on February 10, 2011, 08:17:15 PM

Basics.... I am only talking about the issue that I quoted from Chuchem!
[You will note that I didn't suggest that the whole of mathematic is 1+1=2.]

I am just curious, do you get to decide which halachos are 1+1 or is there a reference somewhere that I can see all the halachos considered 1+1 ?

lubaby · « **Reply #70 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:34:55 PM »

Quote from: dirah on February 10, 2011, 08:17:15 PM

Basics.... I am only talking about the issue that I quoted from Chuchem!
[You will note that I didn't suggest that the whole of mathematic is 1+1=2.]

Wait a second, there's a concept in mathematics of 1+1 equaling 2? Who are you, Einstein?
(this thread started getting a little intense, if my joke offends you, I'm sorry)

chuchem · « **Reply #71 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:42:22 PM »

Quote from: dirah on February 10, 2011, 08:22:42 PM

Hey Chuchem,
Syag Lachuchme Shtika.
I await the results of your Shaalas Chuchem!

We were all having a normal discussion until you came and decided to be rude. I didnt say you were wrong, I said I dont know. While you decided, that you are the chief rabbi!

dirah · « **Reply #72 on:** February 10, 2011, 09:56:39 PM »

Chuchem, no personal offense intended.
For those who don't understand why this is 1+1=2.
Chuchem's argument was: "since at the beach with only goyim a one piece bathing suit is more then normal. So maybe that takes care of the issue of "mokoim sheminhag lechasois"
Basically you are saying whatever the local Goyim do at any given place sets the standard for "mokoim sheminhag lechasois".
This is absurd.
Taking this logic further, if you go to a beach where the Goyim run around Ingantzen Orum, then there might be no issues of "mokoim sheminhag lechasois" either.

[Chuchem's other argument was that I decided that I am the "Gadol Hador" and the "Chief Rabbi". I am not how my words imply that.]

dirah · « **Reply #73 on:** February 10, 2011, 09:58:22 PM »

Quote from: lubaby on February 10, 2011, 08:34:55 PM

Wait a second, there's a concept in mathematics of 1+1 equaling 2? Who are you, Einstein?
(this thread started getting a little intense, if my joke offends you, I'm sorry)

You are not offending me.
However, I am sure you get my drift, and your answer does not accomplish anything other than perhaps making you feel witty.

danielz · « **Reply #74 on:** February 10, 2011, 10:11:43 PM »

They keep tapes. If you want your wife to end up on youtube, go ahead.
Just do a youtube search for frum women swimming; there are over 5000 videos.

moish · « **Reply #75 on:** February 10, 2011, 10:41:38 PM »

not getting involved in the issues, i have to say im quite impressed at how well dirah's arguing his case

Dan · « **Reply #76 on:** February 10, 2011, 10:51:38 PM »

Quote from: danielz on February 10, 2011, 10:11:43 PM

They keep tapes. If you want your wife to end up on youtube, go ahead.
Just do a youtube search for frum women swimming; there are over 5000 videos.

is all I have to say.

Chaikel · « **Reply #77 on:** February 11, 2011, 12:51:42 AM »

Quote from: dirah on February 10, 2011, 09:58:22 PM

You are not offending me.
However, I am sure you get my drift, and your answer does not accomplish anything other than perhaps making you feel witty.

You sound single

dirah · « **Reply #78 on:** February 11, 2011, 02:21:09 AM »

Wow, Chuchem decided that I sound like the Gadol Hador and the Chief Rabbi.
Chaikel decided that I sound single.
So what is next? Does anyone want to tell me:
1. What is my favorite color?
2. What is my second child's SSN?
3. What I eat for lunch on Monday?
You should be able to work it out from my comments, Hafoch Boch v'Hafoch Boch D'kuloh Boh.
I am sure Dan can arrange a couple of million miles as a grand prize for the one who gets the right answers.

kivabb · « **Reply #79 on:** February 13, 2011, 09:50:57 AM »

Wasn't sure if this is right place to post, but being that we’re talking about tznius and LOR's, I was hoping people would post their experience so I can give the facts to my LOR. Considering taking my wife to kauai grand hyatt and trying to gauge if it's possible to go to such a place without having someone else’s wife's bathing suit in your face. Is there a better time of year to go to avoid pritzus. I understand in the summer when you travel, that you have to be extra careful. But somehow the ideas of Hawaii and a beach hotel seem to make that more complicated. Your input is appreciated.