Footsteps - Friend or Foe?

[Dan]

This din of arvus (as I've mentioned countless times) is crucial to the Torah's views of Jewish society and stands in extreme constant with the modern western ideal of "live and let live" and "it's none of my business). Practical applications aside, the idea is untouchable-each Jew is responsible for the spirituality of all others.

Oh the irony. Who wants to dredge through the stuff you spewed in the Lakewood thread? Don't recall you caring much for arvus there.

[clear thinker]

Oh the irony. Who wants to dredge through the stuff you spewed in the Lakewood thread? Don't recall you caring much for arvus there.

2 wrong doesn't make 1 right.
I wasn't involved in that thread so I can't comment on that but here the case is pretty clear cut.

[Dan]

I wasn't involved in that thread so I can't comment on that but here the case is pretty clear cut.

It sure is, I'm just trying to understand when arvus applies and when it doesn't in his book...

[Aj3042]

Oh the irony. Who wants to dredge through the stuff you spewed in the Lakewood thread? Don't recall you caring much for arvus there.

Huh? Do you know what the din of arvus is? It doesn't mean "feeling sympathy for others". It means ensuring others keep the Torah. So if anything, what I said there is in perfect harmony with what I said here.

[Dan]

Huh? Do you know what the din of arvus is? It doesn't mean "feeling sympathy for others". It means ensuring others keep the Torah. So if anything, what I said there is in perfect harmony with what I said here.

Just because someone is a sinner doesn't mean you make a scene and embarrass them in a way that will do nothing to help their spirituality.
You want arvus-go talk to people in the field and see what actually works to bring a sinner back in the fold.

[Aj3042]

It sure is, I'm just trying to understand when arvus applies and when it doesn't in his book...

It applies where Sh"ua and poskim say it does. It doesn't when they don't. If you'd like, you can show me why I was wrong there based on arvus. Did I say there that I can't make kiddush for them?

[Aj3042]

Just because someone is a sinner doesn't mean you make a scene and embarrass them for no religious purpose.
You want arvus-go talk to people in the field and see what actually works to bring a sinner back in the fold.

That's what I thought. "Bringing a sinner back into the fold" in fact has no direct connection to the din of arvus. Sh"ua discusses arvus on terms of being obligated in another's mitzvah, not in terms of the kiruv movement, which it most likely has almost no practical application.

[aygart]

That's what I thought. "Bringing a sinner back into the fold" in fact has no direct connection to the din of arvus. Sh"ua discusses arvus on terms of being obligated in another's mitzvah, not in terms of the kiruv movement, which it most likely has almost no practical application.

So then how does it come into this discussion?

[Dan]

Are you or aren't you responsible for the spirituality of others?
Your position is ironic to the Nth degree and it's sad and quite telling that you can't see that.

[Aj3042]

Are you or aren't you responsible for the spirituality of others?
Your position is ironic to the Nth degree and it's sad and quite telling that you can't see that.

No, what's sad is your confusion of fact, Halacha, and nice vertlach taught in first grade.
A. Arvus means that in terms of certain dinim you are responsible for another.
B. In a greater sense it underlies the notion that each Jew is responsible to ensure that each other follows the Torah.
C. This concept is not brought down concerning "kiruv" by the Rambam or any other poskim. Thus, being that were religious Jews, we stop and say the following: "Though I'm really smart and I can figure out how to rack up 1 million points, the poskim didn't take my great genius to the next level to codify Halacha as such. So where did I mess up?"
Hint: Mostly the din of arvus is related to halachos of mitzvos and tochacha (rebuking).
In summary, arvus as a technical matter applies to what the poskim say it does and that's it.
D. Even if you want to relate it to to the Lakewoid story, how should it go? I say focus on your kids and on the frum community and show them that mocking shemiras Shabbos is unnacceptable. You say to be mekarev the kids. Who said you're acting with arvus more than I am?

[moko]

Is there no org that encourages people to stay in the fold but teaches life skills and secular studies to be able to get regular jobs?

i
It's called C.O.P.E (Aguda's program through Touro) but apparently they don't bash other factions enough to be considered a viable education options for adults with little to no secular education.
It's clear that education is only a small part of their problem. The chasidish lifestyle is what really gets under their skin. Many of them leave the fold and don't continue/begin their secular education, while many chasidim go out and get recieve and education while remaining chasidish.
It's hard to argue that you would like to leave the community but would like to remain a part of the community. Not enjoying certain aspects of a lifestyle and coping with it is part living a healthy life.
Also, some here think that there are alternative paths to avodas hashem aside from Torah and Mitzvos. As a Jew there isnt. One can argue that there are different ways to observe the mitzvos , but all factions of religous Judaism (as opposed to social Judaism) should agree that shmiras hamitzvos is a requirement for avodas hashem not a suggestion.

[Dan]

In that case you should be footsteps biggest advocate.

Taking out the weakest links (most dangerous in your book) of the community and pushing them into the secular world where they won't be a bad influence on others.

[Aj3042]

Guys nice arguing but I got things to do now. Anyways I'm not needed here to be the lone voice of reason as others get it as well. 
So take care.

[Dan]

Guys nice arguing but I got things to do now. Anyways I'm not needed here to be the lone voice of reason as others get it as well. 
So take care.

Actually you're the only one trying to differentiate between these cases.

As a senior citizen was driving down the freeway, his phone rang. Answering, he heard his wife's voice urgently warning him, "Herman, I just heard on the news that there's a car going the wrong way on 280. Please be careful!"
"Hell," said Herman, "It's not just one car. It's hundreds of them!"

[moko]

In that case you should be footsteps biggest advocate.

Taking out the weakest links (most dangerous in your book) of the community and pushing them into the secular world where they won't be a bad influence on others.

chas veshalom. No one should take out the weakest link unless its irreparable. Every jew is hashem's and no one is ever lost forever. I don't have all the answers, but one jew pulling another jew away from Judaism seems abhorrent. Would you ever give up on your child? Would you be upset if one your siblings was encouraging another one to break off contact with your family?

[Dan]

chas veshalom. No one should take out the weakest link unless its irreparable. Every jew is hashem's and no one is ever lost forever. I don't have all the answers, but one jew pulling another jew away from Judaism seems abhorrent. Would you ever give up on your child? Would you be upset if one your siblings was encouraging another one to break off contact with your family?

Thank you for proving my point.
And what if your child was smoking on Shabbos in Lakewood? Would you try to mekarev him or chase him away?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

As a senior citizen was driving down the freeway, his phone rang. Answering, he heard his wife's voice urgently warning him, "Herman, I just heard on the news that there's a car going the wrong way on 280. Please be careful!"
"Hell," said Herman, "It's not just one car. It's hundreds of them!"

Classic!

[moko]

Thank you for proving my point.
And what if your child was smoking on Shabbos in Lakewood? Would you try to mekarev him or chase him away?

definitely mekarev but I wouldn't tell to keep smoking on shabbos because I love you anyway.

[PTU]

Supporting this organization is the transgression of lifnei iver.
They quite literally lead the blind astray.
What is this discussion even about?!

[Dan]

definitely mekarev but I wouldn't tell to keep smoking on shabbos because I love you anyway.

Why would anyone say keep smoking on shabbos??
And why wouldn't you love your fellow Jew as yourself??

The inherent question here is do you push OTD people further out the door or do you shoe them love (for who they are-not what they do) and work with them to return?

If you believe that making an example of troublemakers to show your kids that you mean business in the way to go, then I don't see what you have against footsteps. They're not making truly torah committed Jews frei out, they're getting "rid of the weeds" as you would look at them and those who smoke on shabbos.

If you believe you should love every Jew and ought to find the right individual path to make them feel loved and return to the fold, then both the LW rally and Footsteps are unconscionable IMHO.