Topic Wiki

ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 5355 times)

Online ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #285 on: July 14, 2019, 04:32:50 PM »
Or when it's against the Rebbe's clear instructions?

That might deserve a response in and of itself, but to the point in question, you seem to be saying that this is the exception to your rule stating:

The Chabad approach is not to denigrate, but to uplift everyone by showing what they can accomplish.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #286 on: July 14, 2019, 05:58:08 PM »
Wiki added summarizing first half of this thread. Now I can get to offering some responses in second part, time permitting.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #287 on: July 14, 2019, 06:31:52 PM »
Wiki added summarizing first half of this thread. Now I can get to offering some responses in second part, time permitting.
I think my summary suffices
This thread is trolls baiting concern trolls, attracting bigots, and confusing well meaning bystanders.
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #288 on: July 14, 2019, 07:04:06 PM »
Probably too far off topic, but noticed this paragraph in the back and forth of the current Ger scandal.

רב שליטא נחרד ואמר שהוא לא יכול להאמין שהרבי אמר לעשות משהו היפך דין השו"ע ובוודאי שאם שמיים וארץ נדבקו זה לזה וקרה הנורא מכל הוא לא ישמע לו וניסה להסות אותם מדברים אלו ושאל - אם הרבי יגיד לכם לחלל שבת בפרהסיא תשמעו לו? וענו אותו שני הרבנים הנל פה אחד - בוודאי, והלא על זאת יתפלל כל חסיד - לעת מצוא זו - ליכנס לאש הגיהנם על מילתו של רבי.
Purpose > Pleasure

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #289 on: July 14, 2019, 07:45:18 PM »
Am I naive if I don't believe this?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #290 on: Yesterday at 03:01:19 AM »
Probably too far off topic, but noticed this paragraph in the back and forth of the current Ger scandal.

רב שליטא נחרד ואמר שהוא לא יכול להאמין שהרבי אמר לעשות משהו היפך דין השו"ע ובוודאי שאם שמיים וארץ נדבקו זה לזה וקרה הנורא מכל הוא לא ישמע לו וניסה להסות אותם מדברים אלו ושאל - אם הרבי יגיד לכם לחלל שבת בפרהסיא תשמעו לו? וענו אותו שני הרבנים הנל פה אחד - בוודאי, והלא על זאת יתפלל כל חסיד - לעת מצוא זו - ליכנס לאש הגיהנם על מילתו של רבי.
Link?

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #291 on: Yesterday at 03:23:59 AM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #292 on: Yesterday at 06:23:30 AM »
REPOST!!!!!

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Purpose > Pleasure

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #294 on: Yesterday at 07:56:35 PM »
Probably too far off topic, but noticed this paragraph in the back and forth of the current Ger scandal.

רב שליטא נחרד ואמר שהוא לא יכול להאמין שהרבי אמר לעשות משהו היפך דין השו"ע ובוודאי שאם שמיים וארץ נדבקו זה לזה וקרה הנורא מכל הוא לא ישמע לו וניסה להסות אותם מדברים אלו ושאל - אם הרבי יגיד לכם לחלל שבת בפרהסיא תשמעו לו? וענו אותו שני הרבנים הנל פה אחד - בוודאי, והלא על זאת יתפלל כל חסיד - לעת מצוא זו - ליכנס לאש הגיהנם על מילתו של רבי.

I really don't think it's appropriate for anyone to get involved in the details of the מחלוקת, and hope that cool heads prevail and all will be good.

To the point of the alleged conversation, whether it happened or not, isn't the point, but for an outsider to draw any conclusions from it is foolish. The languages allegedly used, if indeed they were used, are extremes in order to make a point, not something anyone would believe could happen.

It brought to memory the story about the Rebbe Rashab (that interestingly enough came to light through an interaction with the Gerrer Rebbe at the time).

https://chabadlibrary.org/books/maharyatz/sichos/680-7/8/5/index.htm

Quote

סיפר לנו מעשה מאדמו"ר [מהורש"ב] נ"ע זי"ע:

לפני הרבה שנים התקיימה בווארשא אסיפה מוקדמת בה נוכחו האדמו"רים מגור, מראדזמין, ואבי (כ"ק אאמו"ר) נ"ע וזי"ע, ושלשתם דנו אז השאלה ע"ד ה"צענז" אשר הכריחו אז על רבני פולין.

ועוד טרם שמע אבי (כ"ק אאמו"ר נ"ע) את כל חלקי הכוונה לטוב הענין ומעלתה של ה"צענז", אמר מפורש בפיו הקדוש, כי הוא מנגד לזה.

ואחרי אשר שאלו אותו לבאר טעמיו מדוע? למה? ומפני מה אין דעתו נוחה מזה? תשובתו היתה בלשונו הזהב: עס ווילט זיך מיר ניט.

וע"ז שאל אותו הרבי מגור בזה"ל: ליובאוויטשער רבי, צי דען אויף דעם שטעלט איר?

והשיב לו אבי: יע. איך שטעל אַף מיין משקל הראשון'דיקן "ניט וועלן", כי מילדותי וקטנותי אני הרגלתי את גופי לא לרצות את האסור על פי תורה,

וגם שיחפוץ וירצה כל אבר לקיים את המצוה השייכת לו. וברוב רגילותי הוטבע ונעשה טבע, עד אשר הנני מאמין להגוף.

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:17:17 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan