Author Topic: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol  (Read 4772 times)

Offline MosheD

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2015, 01:10:44 PM »
I am asking if a non-Jew made a 25k loan to a Jew is their some Jewish law he could use to wiggle out of the debt.
Also, being that a pruzbal is such an easy thing (takes less than 5 minutes), it is halachicly assumed everyone signed one. Therefore, unless you can prove the lender did not write one the money is still owed

Offline zevmetz

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2015, 01:11:32 PM »
What I mean is that anyways you made the contract under civil law. And even had you made it under Jewish law without yovel and a set beis din, not happening. It's just an extra precaution.

Offline David Smith

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2015, 01:12:30 PM »
Would this cover a loan a non-Jew made to a Jew.
No, it's only intertribe loans. In fact, it's only biblically in effect at the time that Yovel (the Jubilee year) is in effect, which is when the majority of the Jewish people reside in Israel. This hasn't been the case in thousands of years, since the middle of the time of the Bayis Sheini (Second Temple). Today, it only exists as a rabbinic ordination, to keep the law from being forgotten. Being as people were desisting from loaning money to those in need because of this cancellation policy the sage Hillel instituted a procedure called pruzbul. (Pruzbul actually refers to the document used.) The essential factor behind the institution is that only personal loans are cancelled, money owed to Beis Din (the court) or Tzedaka (charity) is not cancelled. The pruzbul is a document giving over the loans to the Beis Din. In turn, they give you the power of attorney to collect these loans, add they have the right to do. This "workaround" only works because the whole loan cancellation today is only Rabbinic, to ensure that it not be forgotten. The rabbis were balancing the maximum benefit, so they also factored in that people wouldn't lend due to this, so they allowed this leeway in their ordination.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2015, 01:13:24 PM »
I am asking if a non-Jew made a 25k loan to a Jew is their some Jewish law he could use to wiggle out of the debt.

Lol!  You know that's not the way the wiggles works...

Offline David Smith

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2015, 01:15:19 PM »
I am asking if a non-Jew made a 25k loan to a Jew is their some Jewish law he could use to wiggle out of the debt.
Nope. Amex and chase would be out of a lot of money if that would work.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline zevmetz

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2015, 01:20:23 PM »
+1

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2015, 01:21:38 PM »
No, it's only intertribe loans. In fact, it's only biblically in effect at the time that Yovel (the Jubilee year) is in effect, which is when the majority of the Jewish people reside in Israel. This hasn't been the case in thousands of years, since the middle of the time of the Bayis Sheini (Second Temple). Today, it only exists as a rabbinic ordination, to keep the law from being forgotten. Being as people were desisting from loaning money to those in need because of this cancellation policy the sage Hillel instituted a procedure called pruzbul. (Pruzbul actually refers to the document used.) The essential factor behind the institution is that only personal loans are cancelled, money owed to Beis Din (the court) or Tzedaka (charity) is not cancelled. The pruzbul is a document giving over the loans to the Beis Din. In turn, they give you the power of attorney to collect these loans, add they have the right to do. This "workaround" only works because the whole loan cancellation today is only Rabbinic, to ensure that it not be forgotten. The rabbis were balancing the maximum benefit, so they also factored in that people wouldn't lend due to this, so they allowed this leeway in their ordination.
Nope. Amex and chase would be out of a lot of money if that would work.
TY!
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline David Smith

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2015, 01:22:08 PM »
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2015, 01:28:44 PM »


This "workaround" only works because the whole loan cancellation today is only Rabbinic, to ensure that it not be forgotten. The rabbis were balancing the maximum benefit, so they also factored in that people wouldn't lend due to this, so they allowed this leeway in their ordination.
Why wouldn't it work mideorayso?


Offline David Smith

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2015, 01:34:10 PM »
Why wouldn't it work mideorayso?
Good question. It depends how to read the gemara in gittin that discusses this. The meforshim deal with this. For a quick overview, look at the derech emunah (hilchos shmitah, perek Tes). Rav Chaim Kanievsky cites lots of pertinent information (not that he needs my haskama, ch'v).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 01:38:00 PM by David Smith »
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2015, 01:37:05 PM »
Good question. It depends how to read the gemara in gittin that discusses this. The meforshim deal with this. For a quick overview, look at the derech emunah (hilchos shmitah, perek Tes). Rav Chaim Kanievsky cites lots of pertinent information.
I'm sure he does

Offline blerbz

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2015, 09:48:13 PM »
Just enjoying the irony of a Smith teaching a Moskowitz the halachos.
Or maybe not everything is as it seems...
😎

Offline David Smith

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2015, 10:57:23 PM »
Just enjoying the irony of a Smith teaching a Moskowitz the halachos.
Or maybe not everything is as it seems...
😎
Smith can be a Jewish name.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline blerbz

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2015, 11:24:55 PM »
Smith can be a Jewish name.
And Moskowitz can be a non-Jewish name

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2015, 11:30:08 PM »
And Moskowitz can be a non-Jewish name
Apparently
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline David Smith

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2015, 11:34:59 PM »
And Moskowitz can be a non-Jewish name
Why do you say that?
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Hatarat Nedarim and Pruzbol
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2015, 12:41:52 AM »
Maybe we shouldn't stereotype individuals.
I just found a new supply of forks!