bargaining for esrog

[thaber]

Whichwould lead one to believe that the mochrim are taking advantage of the higher demand for nice minim. Why then would it be wrong for the customer to do the same when he is hte one with the advantage?

If it's the sme mocher, then I agree. But the guy selling esrogim for $300 in lakewood isn;t the desperate guy three hours before yom tov on 13th ave.

[Ergel]

I think this discussion is silly. Unless there are anti competitive agreements in place, then mochrim are charging what the market will bear. And people getting for cheap on erev yom tov is also what the market bears

[itsyehuda]

Nothing wrong with buying last minute if you're ok with the quality. This whole line of thinking that it is taking advantage of the seller is silly.

And you can certainly bargain as hard as you want. He won't sell to you if he's losing money.

[David Smith]

There are rules in Choshen mishpat of usury and such. it works with percentages. and if people are making more, be it esrogim for sukkos or fish for shabbos (see MB beginning of Hilchos Shabbos) then the mochrim are wrong.
Yes mochrim work hard. and yes our tribe is notorious for negotiating every penny of profit out of a seller. But there are a lot of people who have trouble paying for arba minim, and feel halachic or social pressure to do so. The most expensive place in the USA to buy an esrog is lakewood, which is probably also the poorest per capita of bnai Torah. and they shouldn't be taken advantage of either.
So I propose otzar beis din every year. Socialism is good for some industries

Otzar beis din? Lol.

[thaber]

Otzar beis din? Lol.

Socialism at its best!

[David Smith]

Nothing wrong with buying last minute if you're ok with the quality. This whole line of thinking that it is taking advantage of the seller is silly.

And you can certainly bargain as hard as you want. He won't sell to you if he's losing money.

-1 He'll sell cause he's losing more if he doesn't.

[itsyehuda]

-1 He'll sell cause he's losing more if he doesn't.

So I'm helping him lose less money by patronizing him over someone else.

[David Smith]

Socialism at its best!

You mean that it's a joke? Isn't it fascinating how the prices are exactly the same as other years? I guess the grower is never taking a profit on the esrog. Such tzaddikim!

[thaber]

You mean that it's a joke? Isn't it fascinating how the prices are exactly the same as other years? I guess the grower is never taking a profit on the esrog. Such tzaddikim!

I didn't find that to be true,  and I actually meant conceptually if done correctly. But you seem upset so I'll stop now.

[Cheesecake]

There are rules in Choshen mishpat of usury and such. it works with percentages. and if people are making more, be it esrogim for sukkos or fish for shabbos (see MB beginning of Hilchos Shabbos) then the mochrim are wrong.

You're talking about ona'ah? The basis is market value, not profit margin.
It's true that prices are higher in Lakewood, but the quality is also better. Meat prices are also higher in Lakewood, but for the same quality.

[aygart]

If it's the sme mocher, then I agree. But the guy selling esrogim for $300 in lakewood isn;t the desperate guy three hours before yom tov on 13th ave.

but he may be the same as the desperate guy in the BMG shuk. IINM BP prices are more than OOT as well.

[Cheesecake]

So I'm helping him lose less money by patronizing him over someone else.

But still paying below fair market prices by waiting until he's desperate.

[David Smith]

I didn't find that to be true,  and I actually meant conceptually if done correctly. But you seem upset so I'll stop now.

Not upset in the slightest, just cynical. And i did see a couple of places that looked like legit otzar b'd. By all means, continue.

[aygart]

But still paying below fair market prices by waiting until he's desperate.

Or the fair market value is different now due to the changed supply demand ratio.

[Cheesecake]

did you bargain them down to $20? or that's the price they set for you?

I didn't notice this question being answered, and I think there's a difference.

[Cheesecake]

but he may be the same as the desperate guy in the BMG shuk. IINM BP prices are more than OOT as well.

I believe some OOT have takanos, resulting in poorer quality.

[Cheesecake]

Or the fair market value is different now due to the changed supply demand ratio.

The market value has changed, but I think it's unfair. (That's why I said "fair" market value.)

[itsyehuda]

But still paying below fair market prices by waiting until he's desperate.

That's the fair price at that time. I have no obligation to buy from any specific seller or even at all. So every additional sale helps the seller. Even at liquidation. I'm not going along with this guilt trip.

[David Smith]

A disclaimer: in recent years I've bought erev yom tov, gotten pretty nice stuff, and never paid over $40 altogether, sometimes much less. So everything i say can be taken with a grain of salt.

[Cheesecake]

That's the fair price at that time. I have no obligation to buy from any specific seller or even at all. So every additional sale helps the seller. Even at liquidation. I'm not going along with this guilt trip.

I don't think it's fair. Whether you should feel guilty depends, IMO, on your financial situation.