Why do the Blackberrys often have different (more expensive) Data plans?

[Mordy]

I wanted to post this in the thread asking about PDA/Blackberrys, but that thread has gotten out of control.

So, I felt like explaining this in a new, clean, thread.

Why is blackberry data more expensive?
Some people think its because, like PDAs, it uses more data, so the "unlimited" data costs the carrier more resources, and therefore costs you more.

But that's not entirely true. With mobile apps for standard phones being what they are (google maps, streaming video, funambol, etc), the line between devices and their data use is slowly disappearing.

And if that were really still the reason, why does the SERO plan on Sprint not care about what device you use unless it is a blackberry?
Surely a PDA that includes windows media player and internet connection sharing built into the OS is more of a threat of using more bandwidth... but they don't care on the SERO plan.

No, its not about the amount of Data.
Its about being proprietary.

Blackberrys, despite the way they are marketed, do not actually connect to the internet. That's right, you heard me. Not directly anyway.
RIM, who creates the Blackberry devices, also creates special Blackberry Servers that connect to the internet and interpret the information in a way that the BB can view it.
That means that your web browsing, email, etc., are all travelling through their server first, which then gets translated into a push email signal, or a mobile-friendly web page, etc.

The Blackberry is more like a terminal than an internet connected device, and this is why their service is more expensive- you need to pay a monthly fee to use their servers in addition to using the internet.

You can buy a BB on a Sero plan, but the built-in browser and email won't work without paying extra fees for the server services, unless you work for a company who has already spent thousands of dollars on a BB server of their own (big companies do that for security actually- do you really want your private email travelling through someone else's server first?).

I hope that clears up some of the misconception.

[E]

i have used a 8300 cingular/att without a blackberry plan , the regular browser doesnt work but if you use opera mini it works fine

[Yitzter]

i have used a 8300 cingular/att without a blackberry plan , the regular browser doesnt work but if you use opera mini it works fine

So you CAN use your internet package with the BB? I heard something entirely different.

[AsherO]

unless you work for a company who has already spent thousands of dollars on a BB server of their own (big companies do that for security actually- do you really want your private email travelling through someone else's server first?).

Mordy,

Anytime you surf the internet, your data is traveling through other companies' servers.

[E]

So you CAN use your internet package with the BB? I heard something entirely different.

yes u can, what did you hear

[aygart]

Mordy,

Anytime you surf the internet, your data is traveling through other companies' servers.

true and not true. Your computer and the server that it is communicating with send ENCRYPTED data to each other. The ISP's server would have to crack the encryption to do anything with it. Opera Mini, and I assume that BB works similarly, parses the page with all info on it and converts it to their compressed format. DansDeals.com is a little over 100kb. You then send info back to them which they enter onto the page. Cookies are stored on their server as well. A lot different. I personaly am not worried about Opera or RIM but am worried about other similar browsers such as TeaShark and UCWEB. In my opinion Opera is much better and faster anyhow, although the others do have some advantages.

[whYME]

Your computer and the server that it is communicating with send ENCRYPTED data to each other.

not necessarily.
unless it's a secure page (https) it's not encrypted.

[aygart]

not necessarily.
unless it's a secure page (https) it's not encrypted.

If its private info and its not encrypted then the servers are the least of your worries.

[Yitzter]

I did not know that you can use internet, my friend just got a bb and said that the internet won't work on it. I will for sure get the BB if I can actually use internet.

Just to clarify, if I were to get a blackberry, how would I use the regular internet?

[E]

i have cingular/att : i give them a imei from a regular phone get a internet plane and walla it works, the blackberry email obviously doesn't work

[Mordy]

Yes, third party programs which need to access the internet will still work since they aren't configured to use the BB Servers or even know they exist.

However the "core" features, namely the push email and built in browser, won't work.
The Blackberry doesn't have a true development environment, so  you'll be stuck with a java sandbox for now, which severely limits the amount of third party apps, however Opera Mini is a very decent alternative to the built in web browser, as long as you don't mind playing within the limitations of java (java is not integrated into the system so you lose out on features such as clicking a link from an email, or cut/paste, etc). And there actually is an open source push email client which is being developed right now for BB (its in beta and not available yet, but I have access to it if anyone is interested), however it is not BB specific and possibly not as good as the built in email service which is optimized for the device.

In my (humble?) opinion, if you're not getting a BB to use the native email and web, why bother with the device? Get a cheap PDA or smartphone and be done with it.

[Yitzter]

Yes, third party programs which need to access the internet will still work since they aren't configured to use the BB Servers or even know they exist.

However the "core" features, namely the push email and built in browser, won't work.
The Blackberry doesn't have a true development environment, so  you'll be stuck with a java sandbox for now, which severely limits the amount of third party apps, however Opera Mini is a very decent alternative to the built in web browser, as long as you don't mind playing within the limitations of java (java is not integrated into the system so you lose out on features such as clicking a link from an email, or cut/paste, etc). And there actually is an open source push email client which is being developed right now for BB (its in beta and not available yet, but I have access to it if anyone is interested), however it is not BB specific and possibly not as good as the built in email service which is optimized for the device.

In my (humble?) opinion, if you're not getting a BB to use the native email and web, why bother with the device? Get a cheap PDA or smartphone and be done with it.

Mordy, I have the mogul currently, I really like the BB Curve. Though I can never give up a pocket pc, but for phone and sms, it'll be pretty cool.

[Eli]

I'm also very surprised to hear that opera mini works. do you need at least a regular data plan or is it pay per use? does cingular even let you get a regular data plan on a bb? i thought not.

the reason you need a special bb data plan is because the APN is hard coded into the device and it ONLY connects to bb's servers. other devices allow you to select your own apn which is usually wap.cingular or isp.cingular. if you could hack into the bb and change the apn you could theoretically get internet using a standard data plan but probably not real push.

did i mention a hate my replacement phone - the BlackJack II? it sucks - royally sucks. i can't wait for XBM.

[Yitzter]

did i mention a hate my replacement phone - the BlackJack II? it sucks - royally sucks. i can't wait for XBM.

Yes yes, we heard all about it. When are you getting the new phone? I can't wait, because then I don't have to hear you complain anymore.

[Eli]

Yes yes, we heard all about it. When are you getting the new phone? I can't wait, because then I don't have to hear you complain anymore.

I need to call Cingular XBM and convince them to send me a full kit. I'll have them overnight it for another $10 or so. Then, I'll stop complaining.

But getting back to the topic, I'm so surprised that 3rd party apps work on a BB. I thought the APN was hard coded for ALL apps - for the whole device! Wow, this opens up new worlds for people who like the Curve but don't want to pay a fortune for data on a blackberry plan.  A friend showed me a few days ago a Gmail app which installs on the blackberry and is synced with your gmail account. I doubt it's real push but if it's IMAP which it probably is, then it's most likely decent push.

[E]

they'll overnight it free if u ask nicely and most times they won't send u a full kit , but if your bored enough to send it back three times they'll give u a diff. Make/model

[Mordy]

But getting back to the topic, I'm so surprised that 3rd party apps work on a BB. I thought the APN was hard coded for ALL apps - for the whole device! Wow, this opens up new worlds for people who like the Curve but don't want to pay a fortune for data on a blackberry plan.

Yes, the APN is for blackberry's servers, but the servers only respond to browser and email requests.
Perhaps I should explain how opera mini works-
its not really connected to the internet either. It connects to their Servers in norway, who download the page for you, then compress it into a format that makes it easy to view on a mobile phone. The end result is a really slick and fast web experience that looks like similar to the real web page.
This is not actually the real web page as you would get with Safari on the iPhone or with netfront or Picsel on a Pocket PC, but almost like a remote desktop with their servers.
The problem with this?
Mobile speed tests are not going to be accurate (its measuring the speed of the server's connection to the internet, not yours), and some sites will see the Norwegian IP address and give you a page in Danish instead of English (especially true of targeted advertising).

If you install an app like this on a blackberry, it doesn't use BB's servers since they wouldn't know what to do with it. The servers don't recognize it as email or http, and just pass the data through the APN like a pipe.

So, even with a "standard" data plan on a blackberry, this should work, and has for many people- I can't verify this since I was never personally intrigued by blackberrys enough to try it, but I've heard of people doing it and seen others swap phones to blackberrys without changing their data and have just those kinds of apps work.

  A friend showed me a few days ago a Gmail app which installs on the blackberry and is synced with your gmail account. I doubt it's real push but if it's IMAP which it probably is, then it's most likely decent push.

What you're talking about is imap-idle, which holds a connection open to receive a new email signal. The BB Gmail app IS good, but it doesn't push using imap or even with BB's push.

Most mobile devices do not support imap-idle natively, although palm and WM can have this added with a third party app (the beauty of a smartphone is being able to add new features on a whim).

Sadly, due to the "crippled" nature of the blackberry APIs, developers find it difficult to access the hardware layer enough to create such an application for blackberrys. There IS something I happen to know about being developed which is still in beta. I met the owner of an open-source startup at a mobile tech convention (yes, I'm that deep into the mobile tech world that I have been to confrences/conventions), and I've been keeping up with him and his company, which is clearly going places. The company brings the linux syncML system to common handsets, and synchronizes your PIM and email, even with push. And on devices that don't support push due to the java limitation, the server can be configured to have transparent SMS alerts to enable push. If you don't know what that means don't worry, but let's just say its VERY cool (read: blackberry experience on any device, including even simple phones like the moto Razr).

He's now testing a Blackberry client which he claims works fairly well. I don't think its open to the public yet, but I've kept in touch with him and can probably get people in on the beta testing if anyone is interested.

[Eli]

I think ChatterMail for the Palm does IMAP-IDLE. Why can't Gmail's app for BB do it as well? How else does it get the e-mail? It just syncs every now and then?

I have to disagree with you on the APN thing but I'm pretty sure I'm wrong because you know more than me. (So then why am I disagreeing with you? I don't know. But please explain to me why I'm wrong.) The APN is what tells the DEVICE how to access the internet - not the software. If you have a WM smartphone and you leave the APN blank, or set it to none.none, you won't get internet. Not even with Opera Mini. So if the APN is hard coded in the blackberry, and let's say the APN is rim.cingular which is routed through BB's servers (presumably in Canada), then if you don't register your PIN and cell number with RIM (meaning that Cingular does not have you listed on a BB data plan), how can they allow the device to access the internet? The same way there is no PPU with a BB, this should also not work, no?

[Mordy]

I think ChatterMail for the Palm does IMAP-IDLE. Why can't Gmail's app for BB do it as well? How else does it get the e-mail? It just syncs every now and then?

I do hate repeating myself, but blackberrys are not smartphones. You can't code for them the way you can "smart" devices with a real operating system. You have to play inside the limited sandbox of Java controls if you want to write code.
Palm is a real OS, and as such can have options added to them such as imap-idle.

However, I've heard some people have been managing some pretty ingenious ways to get around the loopholes of the blackberry development limitations. Stay tuned for that...

I have to disagree with you on the APN thing but I'm pretty sure I'm wrong because you know more than me. (So then why am I disagreeing with you? I don't know. But please explain to me why I'm wrong.) The APN is what tells the DEVICE how to access the internet - not the software. If you have a WM smartphone and you leave the APN blank, or set it to none.none, you won't get internet. Not even with Opera Mini. So if the APN is hard coded in the blackberry, and let's say the APN is rim.cingular which is routed through BB's servers (presumably in Canada), then if you don't register your PIN and cell number with RIM (meaning that Cingular does not have you listed on a BB data plan), how can they allow the device to access the internet? The same way there is no PPU with a BB, this should also not work, no?

Hmmm... I'll be honest, I don't know why it works. You're right in that the APN shouldn't work at all if you don't have access to it.
To be honest, I've only seen this working on cdma phones, which may access the servers differently than gsm and their apns. I assumed it would work across the board, but maybe limited to cdma data networks.

[Eli]

For those who care, I fixed my old phone. Here's the story:

http://www.dansdeals.com/forums/index.php?topic=56.msg900#msg900