Why do the Blackberrys often have different (more expensive) Data plans?

[AsherO]

I do hate repeating myself, but blackberrys are not smartphones. You can't code for them the way you can "smart" devices with a real operating system. You have to play inside the limited sandbox of Java controls if you want to write code.
Palm is a real OS, and as such can have options added to them such as imap-idle.

I understand you may be a Palm fanboi, and/or against the CrackBerry revolution, but based on the common definition of smartphone (see here : http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&pwst=1&defl=en&q=define:SmartPhone&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title), a BlackBerry is considered a smartphone.

Additionally, some of the statements you've made in this thread (like your explanation on how opera mini is a remote desktop client to servers in Scandinavia,  ), are inaccurate. I understand you are a cellphone enthusiast, but (CMIIW), I don't think that makes you an authority on all things mobile.

As the proud owner of a CrackBerry, I can clearly attest to the fact that my phone is smart.

[Mordy]

I understand you may be a Palm fanboi, and/or against the CrackBerry revolution, but based on the common definition of smartphone (see here : http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&pwst=1&defl=en&q=define:SmartPhone&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title), a BlackBerry is considered a smartphone.

Remember that post in which you assumed something incorrectly about me?
I'm NOT a palm fanboi, in fact I dislike palms personally, but to each their own.

The problem is that the definition of the Smartphone has changed.
The original definition circa the year 2000-2003 was:
"A phone with an operating system that allows installation of third party applications", the idea of which is that you are not limited to the features it comes with out of the box, but rather new applications and customized programs and UI's can be implemented to keep the phone evolving with your needs.

Then the blackberry and iPhones came along and shook up the market. New phones with "smart features" popped up and claimed the title smartphone despite the fact that didn't have operating systems capable of third part apps.
Now, this definition has officially changed and is only a memory by those who followed the industry a decade ago.

I'm sorry if I refuse to recognize the blackberry as a smartphone. I used to refuse to recognize the iPhone as well, however with the recent updates and the development API made available to the public, its hard to say that the iPhone is not now "smarter" than the blackberry.

And I don't dislike the blackberry. It has its charm, and it definitely has its place in the mobile world. But there are things it is, and things it is NOT.

Additionally, some of the statements you've made in this thread (like your explanation on how opera mini is a remote desktop client to servers in Scandinavia,  ), are inaccurate. I understand you are a cellphone enthusiast, but (CMIIW), I don't think that makes you an authority on all things mobile.

I never claimed to be an expert on all things mobile. However, I'm starting to get the notion that perhaps I know a thing or two that some of the regulars here are not aware of. If you want to crown me "expert", that's your own prerogative.

Sadly, I think you have "assumed" incorrectly once again.
I never said opera mini is a remote desktop client. I said its "LIKE" a remote desktop client in that you're not actually on the web page veiwing html. Opera mini has servers in Norway that its clients connect to and receive a page with reduced size graphics and formatting in a proprietary format to fit on a mobile device's screen. This is known as "server side compression", and makes the loading time of a web page on a mobile device much quicker since you are only receiving and rendering an optimized shadow of the original site.

This is similar to remote desktop in which the server computer is doing the work, and you're watching it from a terminal window. The downside to browsing this way is that speed tests are innacurate (since its the speed of the server to the test, not your phone) and some sites such as targeted advertising, assume the wrong region since they only see the Norwegian IP address of the server.

Sheesh. Read my stuff carefully, man.

As the proud owner of a CrackBerry, I can clearly attest to the fact that my phone is smart.

Spoken like a true fanboi. A blanket statement with no reason to back it up.
fanbois FTW!

[AsherO]

Mordy,

I'm still waiting for a link to a credible source that defines "SmartPhone" as something a BB isn't.

I urge you to write your posts clearly, instead of asking your readers to read them carefully...

[Eric]

from personal experiance the Gmail app. works great with the blackberry without a blackberry plan. All you nee di s a standard data plan

[Dan]

from personal experiance the Gmail app. works great with the blackberry without a blackberry plan. All you nee di s a standard data plan

But then what's the point of having a BB?

[Mordy]

Asher, it may not be my only living, but I write technical articles on the side for a job.
This forum is NOT my job, so I don't feel the need to explain every minute detail ad nasuem (I tend to when pushed), although if you really want to play this game... *sigh*
http://www.informationweek.com/news/mobility/converence/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=207000858
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/wireless/2005/08/23/whatissmartphone.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2007_May_29/ai_n19172291

That's just the quick few that jumped out at me right away.

As I said before, the definition HAS changed, however the classic definitions for a smartphone is still held in high regard by people who need classification of devices, since the new dumbed-down definition doesn't really make any sense or have specific guidelines. (read: marketing calls all these new things smartphones. Developers do not.)
Phones like the BB or LG Voyager (or the original iPhone, not the current firmware release) have "smart features", but there are plenty of "standard phones" with features equivelent- in fact, a moto razr can even have push email nowadays using funambol. So, what makes the BB "smarter"?

The move to call these new internet devices "smartphones" has destroyed the meaning of the term, which is why I always follow the definition posted above.

You can not develop for the blackberry as you can for a real PDA.
Period.

Therefore, in my opinion, it can never be smart.

But then what's the point of having a BB?

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!!!

[Charles The Govenor]

If anyone is intrested you can call sprint give them code x390939229 it is for free blackbeery data including it free as a modem I'm not sure if it still works because this month they got a new ceo who is trying to get rid of all the free codes

[gozalim]

what's the name of the imap-idle app?
does it work with WM?
how is it different from scheduled update check in your inbox?

[Mordy]

imap idle will give you push-style results.
However, if you have WM you are better off with activesync push- more full featured and better end-to-end integration.

One of the few things MS actually did RIGHT and really well is exchange and exchange sync.

[gozalim]

but doesn't activsync only work with an exchange server (as opposed to a normal email address)?

[Mordy]

I think you don't quite understand what Exchange is... what's a "normal" email address for you? Because most "normal" (ie. free with your ISP or webdomain) don't support IMAP either. POP3 is the only standard protocol that is universally accepted, however you won't be able to use IMAP-idle or any of the synchronization goodies that it comes with.

But yes, you need an exchange server hosting your email for activsync push. Unlike a Blackberry Server, however, you have choices. You can host one yourself if you feel up to it, or pay for hosting from a webmail provider (they usually charge around $5 a month for it, about the same as subscription IMAP servers), or you can use some free ones, like mail2web.

[gozalim]

i use gmail. they support IMAP (and i belive also -idle) but i don't know of them having exchange-server option (if they do-fill me in please). hence Gmail+imap idle=free push email.

is mail2web safe? any other free hosts like that?

[Mordy]

Yes, mail2web is safe. They are one of the most popular services for WM users since it effectively gives Windows Mobile everything that makes Blackberry great for free.

They're the only free exchange server, as far as I know. Unless you want to run your own (not recommended unless you have background in networking and server administration), or know someone who is setting one up and wouldn't mind sharing an account- my mail is hosted by a friend in Utah who's part of my mobile development community.
I wouldn't trust doing that unless you know the person, though. I know this guy, and I trust him not to go messing about in my info. And I know he will do anything to keep the server up and healthy (since his own email and business depends on it).

Gmail is Imap-compatible now, but not 100%. More specifically, Google doesn't really use imap, but their own propietary system that has "imap compatibility". What this means is that sometimes things don't work as you'd expect a standard imap to- for example, when you delete a message using imap, it doesn't delete since gmail uses a trash system. So, it moves it into a new directoy, but called "deleted items" (or something like that) instead of trash. If something is in the trash, you won't find it in deleted items, and you'll find your mail folders a complete mess when you log into webmail again.
Also, the servers are not consistent and sometimes the ssl info can change from session to session confusing the client. Most imap clients can handle that, but some of the more primative ones (like the one in WM) cause problems. The only solution in those cases is to create a new inbox on the device and remove the old one until it happens again.
Basically, yes, Gmail supports Imap. It also supports imap-idle. But its a real headache and not a practical example of a real Imap server (of which I don't believe there are many free ones either- most people pay a few bucks extra per month for Imap support from their provider), and you will have a much better experience with Blackberry connect, Activesync, or even Funambol (google it).

[gozalim]

thanks. that helps. I guess that's also why my desktop outlook has been handling gmail so well.