Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy

[churnbabychurn]

You know that is a loaded question. Hasn't orthodoxy changed over the years becoming less strict (not sure if that is the best term to use)? Change will come from within. Unless there is a major switch in society it will only be a matter of time.

Nope, the core has never changed. The MO would try to convince you otherwise as they point to cosmetic changes.

Meanwhile, if you continue to modernize and dilute eventually there will be nothing left. Proof? Open orthodoxy!

[good sam]

You know that is a loaded question. Hasn't orthodoxy changed over the years becoming less strict (not sure if that is the best term to use)? Change will come from within. Unless there is a major switch in society it will only be a matter of time.

Absolutely false. Can you point to one example?

You may be confusing us with the Catholic church.

[grodnoking]

Nope, the core has never changed. The MO would try to convince you otherwise as they point to cosmetic changes.

Meanwhile, if you continue to modernize and dilute eventually there will be nothing left. Proof? Open orthodoxy!

Absolutely false. Can you point to one example?

You may be confusing us with the Catholic church.

[aygart]

You know that is a loaded question. Hasn't orthodoxy changed over the years becoming less strict (not sure if that is the best term to use)? Change will come from within. Unless there is a major switch in society it will only be a matter of time.

The simple answer is no. There is a strong argument to be made that orthodoxy is stricter than it had been 50-60 years ago as well as prior to then. One case in point is the notable exception mentioned at the end of the RCA proclamation.

This resolution does not concern or address non-rabbinic positions such as Yoatzot Halacha, community scholars, Yeshiva University's GPATS, and non-rabbinic school teachers. So long as no rabbinic or ordained title such as "Maharat" is used in these positions, and so long as there is no implication of ordination or a rabbinic status, this resolution is inapplicable.

The concept behind these non-rabbinic positions is historically strong and mentioned in the gemara nidda 13b

דתניא אמר רבי חרשת היתה בשכונתינו לא דיה שבודקת לעצמה אלא שחברותיה רואות ומראות לה

as well as in ShUT Chasam Sofer (I need to find the siman) he discusses women in charge of issuing similar halachic rulings. Such a thing would not be accepted in many/most of the "chareidi" communities today and will be considered "modern"

[David Smith]

DDF is a non denominational forum, so can we please stay away from this discussion, which will ruffle a lot of feathers? Nobody is changing their minds about anything because of it.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Absolutely false. Can you point to one example?

You may be confusing us with the Catholic church.

Aren't the ultra orthodox against the internet except for business purposes? How are you posting.

If you want a classic example go look up the kosher switch thread.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

The simple answer is no. There is a strong argument to be made that orthodoxy is stricter than it had been 50-60 years ago as well as prior to then.

I am sure DDF would have been OK 50-60 years ago. 

[Dan]

Aren't the ultra orthodox against the internet except for business purposes? How are you posting.

Depends on the sect. Mine isn't.
Though the Rabbi of my smicha program did tell me to give up this whole "glob" thing or else I would never find a good shidduch 

[David Smith]

Aren't the ultra orthodox against the internet except for business purposes? How are you posting.

If you want a classic example go look up the kosher switch thread.

I am sure DDF would have been OK 50-60 years ago. 

Not that I'm getting involved in this discussion, but that's not something that changed in orthodoxy over the past 50 years. A chance is something that they didn't allow then and do allow now. The internet and ddf (and the kosher switch) weren't around 50 years ago. The question is how to deal with this new reality, but by definition it can't be considered a change to the right or the left from what was in the past.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Depends on the sect. Mine isn't.

Isn't that the point I was making. Wouldn't some call your sect as modern? Has it always been modern or has it evolved over time? Do you expect it to evolve even more over time?

[aygart]

I am sure DDF would have been OK 50-60 years ago. 

1. See my edit above.
2. There are many aspects in which orthodoxy is stricter now than it had been. 50-60 years ago mixed swimming was common even among the more religious crowd and is now rare except among the most modern. The same goes for married women covering their hair, although the line for that is more to the right. There are numerous additional examples of things which were accepted then which are now unheard of.

[David Smith]

Depends on the sect. Mine isn't.
Though the Rabbi of my smicha program did tell me to give up this whole "glob" thing or else I would never find a good shidduch 

There are sects within your sect.

[Sport]

Aren't the ultra orthodox against the internet except for business purposes? How are you posting.

If you want a classic example go look up the kosher switch thread.

Who do you consider "the ultra orthodox"?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Not that I'm getting involved in this discussion, but that's not something that changed in orthodoxy over the past 50 years. A chance is something that they didn't allow then and do allow now. The internet and ddf (and the kosher switch) weren't around 50 years ago. The question is how to deal with this new reality, but by definition it can't be considered a change to the right or the left from what was in the past.

I will give you the internet and DDF but no way the kosher switch. That was a farce, scam or what ever term you want to use. It was trying to fool the one that can't be fooled just to make things easier.

[Dan]

Isn't that the point I was making. Wouldn't some call your sect as modern? Has it always been modern or has it evolved over time? Do you expect it to evolve even more over time?

Very far from modern, but willing to use anything that's not against halacha to spread the message.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Who do you consider "the ultra orthodox"?

You guys fight about that all the time and you are asking me?

[Sport]

You guys fight about that all the time and you are asking me?

It was a rhetorical question.

[David Smith]

I will give you the internet and DDF but no way the kosher switch. That was a farce, scam or what ever term you want to use. It was trying to fool the one that can't be fooled just to make things easier.

It's a bad example of orthodoxy changing, because it wasn't embraced, it was shunned. It's a proof against you, if anything. (I'm still not getting involved in this discussion.)

[Hershelsdeals]

2. 50-60 years ago mixed swimming was common even among the more religious crowd.

Source?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Very far from modern, but willing to use anything that's not against halacha to spread the message.

Which sects would be considered Modox? Am I correct that Modox means Modern Orthodox?