Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy

[ChaimMoskowitz]

It's a bad example of orthodoxy changing, because it wasn't embraced, it was shunned. It's a proof against you, if anything. (I'm still not getting involved in this discussion.)

Proof against me? Go read the thread. I was the one who called it for what it was. You can call me a lot of things but wrong on that one is not one of them.

[aygart]

I will give you the internet and DDF but no way the kosher switch. That was a farce, scam or what ever term you want to use. It was trying to fool the one that can't be fooled just to make things easier.

And is consider such across the spectrum of orthodoxy

Proof against me? Go read the thread. I was the one who called it for what it was. You can call me a lot of things but wrong on that one is not one of them.

Together with many others

[Aaaron]

When has orthodoxy ever succumbed to deviant fringe groups?

I'll bite and stir the pot.  You're only looking at succumbing to the left.  But it has certainly succumbed to the right.  Subsequent posters claim it's only "cosmetic changes" or a handful of small issues, but that's not the case.  The entire orthodox lifestyle and fabric of orthodox society has shifted in the past few generations; that's succumbing to deviant fringe groups. 

Now, because I'm not really familiar with OO, what have they done that rejects the "basic tenets of our faith," according to the statement?  Is it just having female leaders or is it more than that?

[David Smith]

Proof against me? Go read the thread. I was the one who called it for what it was. You can call me a lot of things but wrong on that one is not one of them.

I'm not calling you wrong on that one. You're still a celebrity from that. I'm saying that your opinion was the   predominant one agreed to by almost all authorities, which shows that orthodoxy didn't move to the left on that issue.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Together with many others

Your recollection is different than mine but I will accept it.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I'm not calling you wrong on that one. You're still a celebrity from that. I'm saying that your opinion was the   predominant one agreed to by almost all authorities, which shows that orthodoxy didn't move to the left on that issue.

Don't you guys have Kosher lights, refrigerators and a ton of other things? The point I am making isn't all these things just to make things easier? I consider that becoming more modern, that's all. Not saying it is a bad thing but it sure doesn't sound to me like things are stricter.

[skyguy918]

I'll bite and stir the pot.  You're only looking at succumbing to the left.  But it has certainly succumbed to the right.  Subsequent posters claim it's only "cosmetic changes" or a handful of small issues, but that's not the case.  The entire orthodox lifestyle and fabric of orthodox society has shifted in the past few generations; that's succumbing to deviant fringe groups. 

Now, because I'm not really familiar with OO, what have they done that rejects the "basic tenets of our faith," according to the statement?  Is it just having female leaders or is it more than that?

The idea of becoming stricter (for lack of a better word) due to the challenges faced from the world around you is not new, or a change to the right. The shift in 'lifestyle' you refer to is simply a changed outward expression of the same internal principles that have guided torah judaism from the beginning.

[skyguy918]

Don't you guys have Kosher lights, refrigerators and a ton of other things? The point I am making isn't all these things just to make things easier? I consider that becoming more modern, that's all. Not saying it is a bad thing but it sure doesn't sound to me like things are stricter.

That's the literal sense of modern. When we talk about modern orthodox, we're talking about modernity in thought and ideas.

[aygart]

I'll bite and stir the pot.  You're only looking at succumbing to the left.  But it has certainly succumbed to the right.  Subsequent posters claim it's only "cosmetic changes" or a handful of small issues, but that's not the case.  The entire orthodox lifestyle and fabric of orthodox society has shifted in the past few generations; that's succumbing to deviant fringe groups. 

Now, because I'm not really familiar with OO, what have they done that rejects the "basic tenets of our faith," according to the statement?  Is it just having female leaders or is it more than that?

See the articles by Rabbi A. Gordimer and other on cross-currents and matzav

[Sport]

I'll bite and stir the pot.  You're only looking at succumbing to the left.  But it has certainly succumbed to the right.  Subsequent posters claim it's only "cosmetic changes" or a handful of small issues, but that's not the case.  The entire orthodox lifestyle and fabric of orthodox society has shifted in the past few generations; that's succumbing to deviant fringe groups. 

Now, because I'm not really familiar with OO, what have they done that rejects the "basic tenets of our faith," according to the statement?  Is it just having female leaders or is it more than that?

Valid point, but none of those are basic tenets of our belief. Although judging by the emphasis put on them may lead you to think otherwise.
I believe OO denies the veracity of the storys in NACH and  chazal.

[aygart]

Your recollection is different than mine but I will accept it.

I am not referring to this forum in particular, but to the OJ world in general.

[aygart]

Don't you guys have Kosher lights, refrigerators and a ton of other things? The point I am making isn't all these things just to make things easier? I consider that becoming more modern, that's all. Not saying it is a bad thing but it sure doesn't sound to me like things are stricter.

There is no part of Judaism which restricts modern technology for its own sake similar to the Amish. As long as you are not violating halacha or the spirit of the law there is no issue at all.

[David Smith]

Don't you guys have Kosher lights, refrigerators and a ton of other things? The point I am making isn't all these things just to make things easier? I consider that becoming more modern, that's all. Not saying it is a bad thing but it sure doesn't sound to me like things are stricter.

Those are examples of fitting modern technological advances around halacha. For an example if what happens when vice versa is attempted, see the kosher switch thread.

[David Smith]

Modern is a misnomer when used in the context of orthodoxy. We're not Amish.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

This is going the religion discussion way and you sure don't need me for that.

[churnbabychurn]

Can y'all please stop bring up the dark days of the early 1900's!
 Klall yisroel went through a terrible period of haskala which may have led to uncovered hair and mixed swimming (and even the holocaust according to some!)

So no, we are not changing or moving right or left. Torah true hashkofa never changed. There was just a haskala related dip that thankfully we got over. The MO nostalgia for the bad days of haskala is unfortunate, and as downward slopes go, it has lead to conservadoxy..

[David Smith]

This is going the religion discussion way and you sure don't need me for that.

Good job stirring of an otherwise dead thread to red hot popcorn. I'm still not involved in this discussion, so i can't weigh in if it was trolling or not, but good job.

[churnbabychurn]

Good job stirring of an otherwise dead thread to red hot popcorn. I'm still not involved in this discussion, so i can't weigh in if it was trolling or not, but good job.

So stop trying to ruin the fun!

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Good job stirring of an otherwise dead thread to red hot popcorn. I'm still not involved in this discussion, so i can't weigh in if it was trolling or not, but good job.

My major point is change is going to happen. Most here disagree with that and I am OK with that. For the record the pot has been boiling way before I ever started posting. I just stir it so it won't burn. 

[churnbabychurn]

My major point is change is going to happen. Most here disagree with that and I am OK with that. For the record the pot has been boiling way before I ever started posting. I just stir it so it won't burn. 

It hasn't changed in hundreds of of years. Why would now be different?