Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy

[David Smith]

My major point is change is going to happen. Most here disagree with that and I am OK with that. For the record the pot has been boiling way before I ever started posting. I just stir it so it won't burn. 

We are referring to different things when we say modernization.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

It hasn't changed in hundreds of of years. Why would now be different?

I guess we look at change differently.

[Aaaron]

Can y'all please stop bring up the dark days of the early 1900's!
 Klall yisroel went through a terrible period of haskala which may have led to uncovered hair and mixed swimming (and even the holocaust according to some!)

So no, we are not changing or moving right or left. Torah true hashkofa never changed. There was just a haskala related dip that thankfully we got over. The MO nostalgia for the bad days of haskala is unfortunate, and as downward slopes go, it has lead to conservadoxy..

Right.  Because in the 1800s and earlier most Jews covered their hair for religious reasons (see Aruch Hashulchan), never talked to people of the opposite gender (and definitely never swam with them), always had their elbows and collarbones covered, never sang in mixed company, had a few g'virim supporting huge amounts of full-time yungerlite, etc.   

I could go on.  You're not kidding anyone by claiming that the period of haskala was a radical departure from prior levels of observance.  Whether or not the basic tenets of the Jewish faith have been changed, the practice certainly has.

[churnbabychurn]

Right.  Because in the 1800s and earlier most Jews covered their hair for religious reasons (see Aruch Hashulchan), never talked to people of the opposite gender (and definitely never swam with them), always had their elbows and collarbones covered, never sang in mixed company, had a few g'virim supporting huge amounts of full-time yungerlite, etc.   

I could go on.  You're not kidding anyone by claiming that the period of haskala was a radical departure from prior levels of observance.  Whether or not the basic tenets of the Jewish faith have been changed, the practice certainly has.

I meant late 1800 early 1900. The period of the oruch hashulchan. The period of haskala. This was my point.
 That period is nothing to be proud of, and was a dip in Torah observance and hashkofa due to hskala. That generation radically moved to the left. This was never the derech of Klall yisroel.
The MO have made a grave error in trying to roll back and cling to the "glorious" days of haskala.
The yeshiva and chassidic world has moved on. Striving to return to pre haskala days.

[aygart]

Can y'all please stop bring up the dark days of the early 1900's!
 Klall yisroel went through a terrible period of haskala which may have led to uncovered hair and mixed swimming (and even the holocaust according to some!)

So no, we are not changing or moving right or left. Torah true hashkofa never changed. There was just a haskala related dip that thankfully we got over. The MO nostalgia for the bad days of haskala is unfortunate, and as downward slopes go, it has lead to conservadoxy..

The simple answer is no. There is a strong argument to be made that orthodoxy is stricter than it had been 50-60 years ago as well as prior to then. One case in point is the notable exception mentioned at the end of the RCA proclamation.The concept behind these non-rabbinic positions is historically strong and mentioned in the gemara nidda 13b as well as in ShUT Chasam Sofer (I need to find the siman) he discusses women in charge of issuing similar halachic rulings. Such a thing would not be accepted in many/most of the "chareidi" communities today and will be considered "modern"

[ADG]

Depends on the sect. Mine isn't.
Though the Rabbi of my smicha program did tell me to give up this whole "glob" thing or else I would never find a good shidduch 

Go Rabbi Shmuckler!!! (nothing to do with comment above)

[Hershelsdeals]

Can y'all please stop bring up the dark days of the early 1900's!
 Klall yisroel went through a terrible period of haskala which may have led to uncovered hair and mixed swimming (and even the holocaust according to some!)

So no, we are not changing or moving right or left. Torah true hashkofa never changed. There was just a haskala related dip that thankfully we got over. The MO nostalgia for the bad days of haskala is unfortunate, and as downward slopes go, it has lead to conservadoxy..

+1

[Aaaron]

I meant late 1800 early 1900. The period of the oruch hashulchan. The period of haskala. This was my point.
 That period is nothing to be proud of, and was a dip in Torah observance and hashkofa due to hskala. That generation radically moved to the left. This was never the derech of Klall yisroel.
The MO have made a grave error in trying to roll back and cling to the "glorious" days of haskala.
The yeshiva and chassidic world has moved on. Striving to return to pre haskala days.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  Do you honestly think that today's Yeshiva and Chassidish worlds are living similarly to Judaism 200 years ago?  1000 years ago?  I think with MO moving to the left and Yeshiva moving to the right, it's creating a schism with original textual/doctrinal/traditional Judaism somewhere in between.  Just my opinion.

[churnbabychurn]

The simple answer is no. There is a strong argument to be made that orthodoxy is stricter than it had been 50-60 years ago as well as prior to then. One case in point is the notable exception mentioned at the end of the RCA proclamation.The concept behind these non-rabbinic positions is historically strong and mentioned in the gemara nidda 13bas well as in ShUT Chasam Sofer (I need to find the siman) he discusses women in charge of issuing similar halachic rulings. Such a thing would not be accepted in many/most of the "chareidi" communities today and will be considered "modern"

What are you talking about? Woman used to be boki in dam so they showed them maros. FYI in Lakewood today the are woman who are boki in other aspects of hilchos nidda and assist rabbonim.
This is not considered modern at all.

 FEMINISM is the enemy! It's all about the attitude, for some it's all about looking over at the prevalent culture today and trying to make yiddishkeit fit. This is evil.

[aygart]

FYI in Lakewood today the are woman who are boki in other aspects of hilchos nidda and assist rabbonim.
This is not considered modern at all.

I am well aware of those and have dealt with them at times when filling in for RSMK during his hours in BMG, but they act simply as a medical diagnostic and report only to the posek who referred to them. They will not even look at someone with their being referred.

[grodnoking]

Let me just say that the same way there are different sects of orthodox such as yeshivish/ultra ext. There are different levels of MO, plenty of people who you would consider MO follow the full letter of the law, and there are some that have a few issues (such as some still don't cover their hair).
And as others where saying there is a difference between fitting technology around the halacha, and fitting halacha around technology. The OO care more about being a politically correct (and Americanized) person and attempt to fit halacha around it and mess it up majorly

[churnbabychurn]

I am well aware of those and have dealt with them at times when filling in for RSMK during his hours in BMG, but they act simply as a medical diagnostic and report only to the posek who referred to them. They will not even look at someone with their being referred.

And "paskening" on a color can also be considered "diagnosis"..
The point is that nothing changed. It used to be that they knew colors and they therefore answered. now noone knows this anyway. (With all due respect).
They also " pasken" every single night on mikvah questions. If they don't know they ask a rov. So not sure what you're saying.

[aygart]

And "paskening" on a color can also be considered "diagnosis"..
The point is that nothing changed. It used to be that they knew colors and they therefore answered. now noone knows this anyway. (With all due respect).
They also " pasken" every single night on mikvah questions. If they don't know they ask a rov. So not sure what you're saying.

Do you mean to say that you think that if someone would set up women in Lakewood to view maros the reaction would be positive or neutral?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

For the record the pot has been boiling way before I ever started posting.

 

[churnbabychurn]

Do you mean to say that you think that if someone would set up women in Lakewood to view maros the reaction would be positive or neutral?

It's not a whole official "set up" - If it would be discreet like the Mikva/maka ladies of today it would be just fine and appropriate. The problem is when feminisem gets involved.
Even when this was practiced it wasn't an official shteller. Just a knowledgble woman not unlike a kalla teacher (or mechanes in today's high schools who are pretty knowledgble.)

[Redbull3]

Don't you guys have Kosher lights, refrigerators and a ton of other things? The point I am making isn't all these things just to make things easier? I consider that becoming more modern, that's all. Not saying it is a bad thing but it sure doesn't sound to me like things are stricter.

(Not speaking for everyone).
Making things easier is a Jewish tradition. We aren't allowed to carry things between properties on the sabbath but we put up a string and boom - we define it as a single domain, permitting carrying. We can't own chametz on pesach so we sell it to non-jews before and buy it back after. It's a common and old practice but is it new? Not at all. We have an extremely complex set of 613 laws each with billions of manifestations and new ones all the time as technology and the world changes... being modern orthodox means being orthodox, while living in the modern world. As opposed to regular (or you may say ultra) orthodox who are generally separatist from the outside world. But being modern doesn't mean less of an adherence to the laws.

[aygart]

It's not a whole official "set up" - If it would be discreet like the Mikva/maka ladies of today it would be just fine and appropriate. The problem is when feminisem gets involved.
Even when this was practiced it wasn't an official shteller. Just a knowledgble woman not unlike a kalla teacher (or mechanes in today's high schools who are pretty knowledgble.)

-1 the lashon of the Chsam Sofer (still need to find the siman) is isha hmamimuna al zeh

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Making things easier is a Jewish tradition. We aren't allowed to carry things between properties on the sabbath but we put up a string and boom - we define it as a single domain, permitting carrying. We can't own chametz on pesach so we sell it to non-jews before and buy it back after.

I look at this as finding loopholes. I am guilty of the same thing. Is this what religion is all about that we should treat it like the tax code?

[aygart]

I look at this as finding loopholes. I am guilty of the same thing. Is this what religion is all about that we should treat it like the tax code?

There are different types of loopholes. There is nothing wrong with opening a refrigerator on Shabbos. There is a problem caused by there being a light in the fridge which will turn on. If you disconnect the light that is not a loophole. The "chilul shabbos switch" is very different. Turn on a light is forbidden on shabbos. someone using such a device is arranging a technicality to do something forbidden.

As I have said in previous places, an eruv is not a proper analogy since it will only work for an area where the entire issue is dirabonon since a karmelis may get confused with a real reshus harabim and therefore set it up that once there is enough of a heker it returns to being mutar.

[Redbull3]

I look at this as finding loopholes. I am guilty of the same thing. Is this what religion is all about that we should treat it like the tax code?

Loophole is kind of a callous term; it's incidental and not the end goal. The end goal is the pursuit of knowledge itself. We are obsessed with laws and their interpretation. I'm not sure how much you aware but those of us who "sit and learn" are literally shlugging their thumbs discussing this stuff all day and it's considered basically the holiest endeavor possible. So it's not about proactively searching for loopholes but rather constantly refining our understanding of what the laws are and yes, sometimes we use it to our advantage to make our lives a little easier, but that isn't the end goal, it's the thinking and discussions themselves.