Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?

[elya]

And you had apologetics for Rebeim.  What does it mean that you're koneh an isha from her father?  If the life of a man and a woman are in peril who gets saved first?  What does it mean that a woman can never get divorced against her husband's will but a husband can(until Rabbeinu Gershom)?  I can go on.

Okay I am under qualified to get involved in any of these discussions. And besides it seems like you will refute  anything I (or anyone for that matter) will say, as these are just answers not questions.
 My point was that had you had the right Rabeim you would realize that in terms of Avodas Hashem Women are in no way inferior to men.
And there is no room for degradation of women in any way watsoever in the Torah view!!!

[zevmetz]

OK enough beating around the bush. Does the Torah teach that a Jew is superior in any way to a non-Jew at birth? YES or NO!

Which is superior a lemon or an orange?

[Aaaron]

Okay I am under qualified to get involved in any of these discussions. And besides it seems like you will refute  anything I (or anyone for that matter) will say, as these are just answers not questions.
 My point was that had you had the right Rabeim you would realize that in terms of Avodas Hashem Women are in no way inferior to men.

You crack me up.  How does a woman achieve a share in Olam Haba?  Not by any personal growth or achievements, but by assisting her husband in his Avodas Hashem.  She's merely an aide in the eyes of the Torah.  That's why we don't celebrate her Bas Mitavah ad much as his Bar Mitzvah, because she reaches the beginning of her duty when she gets married (this last vort is from my tenth grade Rebbe).

And there is no room for degradation of women in any way watsoever in the Torah view!!!

There's no need to degrade them when they're already worth less than men according to the Torah.  Ok, now that was a cheap shot to stir the pot.

[zevmetz]

You crack me up.  How does a woman achieve a share in Olam Haba?  Not by any personal growth or achievements, but by assisting her husband in his Avodas Hashem.  She's merely an aide in the eyes of the Torah.  That's why we don't celebrate her Bas Mitavah ad much as his Bar Mitzvah, because she reaches the beginning of her duty when she gets married (this last vort is from my tenth grade Rebbe).

Source???

[Aaaron]

Source???

Brachos 17a

[zevmetz]

Brachos 17a

The Gemara says over there the contrary that women have more more merits!!

[Aaaron]

The Gemara says over there the contrary that women have more more merits!!

And how do they obtain olam haba?  What are their merits?

[elya]

And how do they obtain olam haba?  What are their merits?

Yes by assisting their husbands and children learn Torah and be Oved Hashem, but that grants them equal merit! They are in no way inferior, just serve different function 

[MarkS]

Mods  -please rename this thread to The funny/strange/interesting/random hashkafos thread!

[zevmetz]

And how do they obtain olam haba?  What are their merits?

Instead of learning Torah and doing all the Mitzvos themselves, through bringing their kids to shul to learn Torah and waiting for their husbands to come back from learning they achieve a greater merit. Just like the Gemara says in brochos as well "Godol shimushan shel talmidei chachomim yoser milimudeha".

It is very shameful for someone to say in the name of the Torah that women are inferior to men. Each have their own way to serve g-d.

[Aaaron]

Yes by assisting their husbands and children learn Torah and be Oved Hashem, but that grants them equal merit! They are in no way inferior, just serve different function

You crack me up.  How does a woman achieve a share in Olam Haba?  Not by any personal growth or achievements, but by assisting her husband in his Avodas Hashem.  She's merely an aide in the eyes of the Torah.  That's why we don't celebrate her Bas Mitavah ad much as his Bar Mitzvah, because she reaches the beginning of her duty when she gets married (this last vort is from my tenth grade Rebbe).

Instead of learning Torah and doing all the Mitzvos themselves, through bringing their kids to shul to learn Torah and waiting for their husbands to come back from learning they achieve a greater merit. Just like the Gemara says in brochos as well "Godol shimushan shel talmidei chachomim yoser milimudeha".

It is very shameful for someone to say in the name of the Torah that women are inferior to men. Each have their own way to serve g-d.

Right.  Let's give you the sole job of helping your spouse to merit your way into olam haba and call you an equal.  There are so many indications that the Torah treats them as inferior that I'm shocked we're having this conversation.

I'll add a few more to my earlier ones which you've failed to address.

Polygamy is allowed, but not polyandry. A woman may inherit property of her parents only if she has no brothers.  And IIRC, women can't be Eidim, nor any form of judge, nor can own any property (not positive on that last one).  But yeah, they're not inferior I tell you!

[elya]

Right.  Let's give you the sole job of helping your spouse to merit your way into olam haba and call you an equal.  There are so many indications that the Torah treats them as inferior that I'm shocked we're having this conversation.

I'll add a few more to my earlier ones which you've failed to address.

Polygamy is allowed, but not polyandry. A woman may inherit property of her parents only if she has no brothers.  And IIRC, women can't be Eidim, nor any form of judge, nor can own any property (not positive on that last one).  But yeah, they're not inferior I tell you!

I've stated that I am under qualified to address this. However If you are really looking for answers there are many people that can help you, though I get the feeling that's not exactly your point here.., in which case no answer will satisfy you.

[Aaaron]

I've stated that I am under qualified to address this. However If you are really looking for answers there are many people that can help you, though I get the feeling that's not exactly your point here.., in which case no answer will satisfy you.

Answers to what question?  I posited a statement, that Judaism looks at women as inferior to men.  I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor, look at all the facts and the simplest explanation is usually the accurate one.  It may make you uncomfortable, but as CBC would say, that doesn't change the Torah. 

[zevmetz]

Right.  Let's give you the sole job of helping your spouse to merit your way into olam haba and call you an equal.  There are so many indications that the Torah treats them as inferior that I'm shocked we're having this conversation.

I'll add a few more to my earlier ones which you've failed to address.

Polygamy is allowed, but not polyandry. A woman may inherit property of her parents only if she has no brothers.  And IIRC, women can't be Eidim, nor any form of judge, nor can own any property (not positive on that last one).  But yeah, they're not inferior I tell you!

As said earlier you are comparing apples to oranges.

I don't see In any way how not permitting polyandry implies that women are inferior to men, though that could be a whole discussion for itself.
Women don't inherit property so that the land of Israel as it was divided between the tribes should stay in that tribe.
A women can't be a judge for modest reasons, and for many things women are believed as a witness.

Again NOWHERE does the Torah say women are inferior to men, each have their own role in their service to g-d.

[churnbabychurn]

Answers to what question?  I posited a statement, that Judaism looks at women as inferior to men.  I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor, look at all the facts and the simplest explanation is usually the accurate one.  It may make you uncomfortable, but as CBC would say, that doesn't change the Torah.

The saddest thing in the world is how uncomfortable some people get when the hashkofas hatorah clashes with the most recent modern social norms and trends.
This is what I mean when I refer to the deep shame many in the modern community have about their yiddishkeit.
Some (-OO) have reached a point where they just do away with many aspects of hashkofas hatorah. They simply can't handle the shame.
Others simply teach their kids that hashkofas hatorah is indeed inferior, but we must deal with it within halacha as much as required.
Either way, there is no way the next generations will remain fully faithful.

[ShlockDoc]

Whoah, I think this has gone off the deep end. I'm out.

[Moshe123]

Oy. The truth hurts. Well said CBC.

[good sam]

The problem is when you base this on a birthright.

Why is that a problem?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Why is that a problem?

It brings up the question of "superior" again. Believe it or not I was trying to get a serious answer to my main question about being superior. I have my answer and it would be best for me just to stay out of this one.

[zevmetz]

It brings up the question of "superior" again. Believe it or not I was trying to get a serious answer to my main question about being superior. I have my answer and it would be best for me just to stay out of this one.

Totally disagree. Each is different. Each have their own role to play in the big picture. That doesn't make one superior over the other. I think this has been repeated already many times. I guess there is some selective reading going on.