Author Topic: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?  (Read 43205 times)

Offline Aaaron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 1396
  • Total likes: 39
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #200 on: November 08, 2015, 11:18:18 AM »
-1. The Torah teaches that being Jewish is superior to being non Jewish, and so on. Big difference, and a big hang up point for some people.

Explain that dichotomy to me?

To me, the logical conclusion is if being Jewish is superior to not, then a Jew is superior to a non-Jew.

Would you also say that being a man is superior to being a woman?  But men aren't superior to women?

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11724
  • Total likes: 168
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #201 on: November 08, 2015, 11:18:38 AM »
Even if you believe that ...

Having money is better than being penniless but neither makes one a better or worse person.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline David Smith

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 8134
  • Total likes: 212
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #202 on: November 08, 2015, 11:22:25 AM »
Explain that dichotomy to me?

To me, the logical conclusion is if being Jewish is superior to not, then a Jew is superior to a non-Jew.

Would you also say that being a man is superior to being a woman?  But men aren't superior to women?
Having better tools doesn't guarantee that the house that's built will be better. That depends on the builder. But if you ask me if it's better for a builder to have good tools, i will say yes.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline good sam

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 3524
  • Total likes: 558
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #203 on: November 08, 2015, 12:11:00 PM »
My basic synopsis on the subjects:

The Torah teaches - either blatantly or via intimation - that Jews are superior to Non-Jews, and men are superior to women.  Now, there are 3 different ways to approach those ideologies. 

1:  Embrace them, ala CBC and others here.  And anyone who dares challenge the notions or wrangle them into some other meaning is watering down Yiddishkeit [and is probably OO].  Frankly, I understand where this group comes from, as it's not hard to believe that the Torah, which even commands genocide, would also preach superiority and misogyny. 

2:  You then have those that try to justify them or twist them into another meaning, i.e. different but equal; women are more perfected (which is irrelevant since the Torah still gives them less rights and inherently less value); we're all going to the same Olam Haba if you live properly (even though many midrashim, rishonim and achronim say otherwise), etc.

3:  Lastly, you have those that pick and choose which parts to believe.  OO, Orthoprax, or plainly unobservant.
So as I understand your position, as far as what Orthodox Judaism preaches, you agree with the most right-winged among us, and it's for this reason (as least partially) that you have rejected Orthodox Judaism. Correct?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 12:25:56 PM by good sam »
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7647
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #204 on: November 08, 2015, 12:19:01 PM »
@aaron, who makes Kiddush Friday night in your house, you or your wife?
I'm assuming that you do. I'm also assuming that you don't think that this is misogynistic.

You see, I'm all for woman voting and having equal rights. But realizing that men and woman are inherently different is just science. The notion that men and women are exactly equal beings, is loony feminist destructive insanity. I don't buy it. This is not about who is better. It's not a competition.

Q . Who's better a car or a lawn mower? 
A. Non.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68932
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #205 on: November 08, 2015, 12:23:47 PM »
@aaron, who makes Kiddush Friday night in your house, you or your wife?
I'm assuming that you do. I'm also assuming that you don't think that this is misogynistic.

You see, I'm all for woman voting and having equal rights. But realizing that men and woman are inherently different is just science. The notion that men and women are exactly equal beings, is loony feminist destructive insanity. I don't buy it. This is not about who is better. It's not a competition.

Q . Who's better a car or a lawn mower? 
A. Non.

A CBC post I can't argue with. Shocking, I know  ;D
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Aaaron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 1396
  • Total likes: 39
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #206 on: November 08, 2015, 01:01:48 PM »
So as I understand your position, as far as what Orthodox Judaism preaches, you agree with the most right-winged among us, and it's for this reason (as least partially) that you have rejected Orthodox Judaism. Correct?

Nope, not at all to the last point, but yes to the first point as to what I believe Judaism preaches.

@aaron, who makes Kiddush Friday night in your house, you or your wife?
I'm assuming that you do. I'm also assuming that you don't think that this is misogynistic.

You see, I'm all for woman voting and having equal rights. But realizing that men and woman are inherently different is just science. The notion that men and women are exactly equal beings, is loony feminist destructive insanity. I don't buy it. This is not about who is better. It's not a competition.

Q . Who's better a car or a lawn mower? 
A. Non.

You're focusing on issues that are irrelevant to inferiority.  Yes, I make kiddush and she lights licht.  That's neither here nor there.  You would be right, just looking at that small snapshot tells you nothing about the equality of the genders in Judasim.  But look at the others that I have posted and try to legitimatize them:

I'll repost them:
Polygamy is allowed, but not polyandry.
A woman may inherit property of her parents only if she has no brothers. 
And IIRC, women can't be Eidim, nor any form of judge, nor can own any property (not positive on that last one).
How does a woman achieve a share in Olam Haba? 
What does it mean that you're koneh an isha from her father? 
If the life of a man and a woman are in peril who gets saved first? 
What does it mean that a woman can never get divorced against her husband's will but a husband can(until Rabbeinu Gershom)?
Let's not forget the Rambam's  and others' shittas that it's muttar to beat your wife, even with a whip.  Oh, and then it's a machlokes whether she can force him to give her a get.


And there are so many more.  Tell me again that a traditional understanding of Judaism isn't misogynistic. 


Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #207 on: November 08, 2015, 01:05:30 PM »
You see, I'm all for woman voting and having equal rights. But realizing that men and woman are inherently different is just science. The notion that men and women are exactly equal beings, is loony feminist destructive insanity. I don't buy it. This is not about who is better. It's not a competition.
Easy to say when you have the power. If you the shoe was on the other foot you would be singing a different tune.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #208 on: November 08, 2015, 01:07:17 PM »
If the life of a man and a woman are in peril who gets saved first? 
Lets stop right there. What is the answer to this one?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline David Smith

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 8134
  • Total likes: 212
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #209 on: November 08, 2015, 01:08:19 PM »
Lets stop right there. What is the answer to this one?
No difference.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #210 on: November 08, 2015, 01:09:51 PM »
No difference.
Not following. No difference as you can pick one?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline David Smith

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 8134
  • Total likes: 212
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #211 on: November 08, 2015, 01:14:04 PM »
Not following. No difference as you can pick one?
Yup. Neither one has precedence over the other.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #212 on: November 08, 2015, 01:17:14 PM »
Yup. Neither one has precedence over the other.
How can you religion have so many different interpretations on basic issues?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Achas Veachas

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 4789
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
    • Torah && Tech
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #213 on: November 08, 2015, 01:17:48 PM »
Lets stop right there. What is the answer to this one?
I have no idea where he picked that out of, I never heard that there's a difference regarding who gets saved first...

Offline David Smith

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 8134
  • Total likes: 212
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #214 on: November 08, 2015, 01:18:41 PM »
How can you religion have so many different interpretations on basic issues?
Simple. The non religious think the religious have different rules than the religious do.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #215 on: November 08, 2015, 01:19:03 PM »
I have no idea where he picked that out of, I never heard that there's a difference regarding who gets saved first...
This happens all the time in these discussions. Are members just making stuff up out of the blue?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Aaaron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 1396
  • Total likes: 39
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #216 on: November 08, 2015, 01:19:23 PM »
I'll get a source today, and if not, I'll retract that piece.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 7232
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #217 on: November 08, 2015, 01:20:21 PM »
Simple. The non religious think the religious have different rules than the religious do.
That's not fair to say someone disagrees with you to claim they are non-religious.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline David Smith

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 8134
  • Total likes: 212
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #218 on: November 08, 2015, 01:24:16 PM »
That's not fair to say someone disagrees with you to claim they are non-religious.
I thought i saw someone mentioning at some point in the thread that he wasn't orthodox, but I'm quite possibly  mistaken.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline Aaaron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 1396
  • Total likes: 39
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?
« Reply #219 on: November 08, 2015, 01:26:57 PM »
I thought i saw someone mentioning at some point in the thread that he wasn't orthodox, but I'm quite possibly  mistaken.

You're mistaken  :)