Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?

[ShlockDoc]

I once went to a shiur given by a prominent Orthodox leader who was an amazing speaker. This "proof" was the central theme of his speech.  Afterward a few guys and I approached him and asked him what are the odds that if he were born a Muslim, he would be using his significant speaking talents and intellect to be talking about the proofs that Islam was the one true religion.  He looked around and said "99%". I was very impressed by his intellectual honesty.

[Baruch]

I once went to a shiur given by a prominent Orthodox leader who was an amazing speaker. This "proof" was the central theme of his speech.  Afterward a few guys and I approached him and asked him what are the odds that if he were born a Muslim, he would be using his significant speaking talents and intellect to be talking about the proofs that Islam was the one true religion.  He looked around and said "99%". I was very impressed by his intellectual honesty.

It's a scary thought.
The truth is, there's a 99% chance that anyone brought up a Palestinian would dance at the stabbing of Israeli children.


The power of your upbringing and surroundings is scary.

[jj1000]

"Would you believe in what you believe in if you were the only one who believed it?"

- Kanye West

[churnbabychurn]

"Would you believe in what you believe in if you were the only one who believed it?"

- Kanye West

Yes!

[ShlockDoc]

It's a scary thought.
The truth is, there's a 99% chance that anyone brought up a Palestinian would dance at the stabbing of Israeli children.


The power of your upbringing and surroundings is scary.

That's exactly right. That's why it's important to have humility when talking about the other side of a dispute. Dehumanizing them doesn't make sense since if we were born in Ramallah or into an Open Orthodox family, we would be arguing their side.

[jj1000]

That's exactly right. That's why it's important to have humility when talking about the other side of a dispute. Dehumanizing them doesn't make sense since if we were born in Ramallah or into an Open Orthodox family, we would be arguing their side.

The real question you had to ask him was if he grew up Muslim does he think he would have the chance to become frum at some point in his life. And his answer would have been 100% yes...

Frum I suppose can mean his neshama's purpose in the world

[David Smith]

It's a scary thought.
The truth is, there's a 99% chance that anyone brought up a Palestinian would dance at the stabbing of Israeli children.


The power of your upbringing and surroundings is scary.

You don't have to be wrong to be a menace to society that must be eliminated.

[Aaaron]

read the article I linked.

I did.  It has multiple faults:

1) It downplays the fact that there's only ONE report of 600,000 poeple.  Not 600,000 reports.
2) It ignores the complete blind faith we're taught to have.
3) There are other - more recent - mass revelations that we obviously don't believe in.  I.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

[aygart]

I did.  It has multiple faults:

1) It downplays the fact that there's only ONE report of 600,000 poeple.  Not 600,000 reports.
2) It ignores the complete blind faith we're taught to have.
3) There are other - more recent - mass revelations that we obviously don't believe in.  I.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

1 is somewhat addressed by the continuation of the article.
2 I have no clue what you are talking about
3 What exactly is the signifcance of some strange happening of the sun? The phenomenon did not tell them anything all it was just some sort of event at most.

[Aaaron]

1 is somewhat addressed by the continuation of the article.
2 I have no clue what you are talking about
3 What exactly is the signifcance of some strange happening of the sun? The phenomenon did not tell them anything all it was just some sort of event at most.

1.  I said it downplays it.  It's really significant especially because of..
2.  We're told we're not allowed to question chazal, gedolim, etc., and it's been that way for eons.  If their gedolim told them that 600,000 heard/saw it, it would be accepted without question; not like in the scenarios he describes.  Additionally, they saw their leaders as having a direct connection to HaShem.
3.  It was allegedly a predicted miracle.  That's like asking what's the significance of some lightning and thunder at Har Sinai.

"Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws..."

That even sounds like something that could have been seen at Har Sinai.

[jj1000]

We're told we're not allowed to question chazal, gedolim, etc.

This is a common difference between my upbringing and many whom I've talked to that have problems with orthodox Judaism.

[Aaaron]

This is a common difference between my upbringing and many whom I've talked to that have problems with orthodox Judaism.

I was more referring to back then, with ruach haKodesh and all.

[aygart]

This is a common difference between my upbringing and many whom I've talked to that have problems with orthodox Judaism.

+100000000
I was always encouraged to find answers to questions. I used to call R Avigdor Miller all the time during bein hasdorim together with a friend and discuss these types of things. He used to tell us to call him back for anything. I don't remember all the answers he gave us, but we used ask him things like why shouldn't I become a buddhist and he used to give lengthy answers to everything.

I was more referring to back then, with ruach haKodesh and all.

Even Ruach Hakodesh would be difficult to explain a statement of "you guys allheard Hashem"

3.  It was allegedly a predicted miracle.  That's like asking what's the significance of some lightning and thunder at Har Sinai.That even sounds like something that could have been seen at Har Sinai.

The thunder and lightning were a "side show" to the aseres hadibros. Moshe talks primarily how they "heard" Hashem. That is like the bun without the hot dog.

[churnbabychurn]

Heh?  Why couldn't it have been made up two thousand years ago?  I'm not saying it was. I just never understood this "proof".

I did.  It has multiple faults:

1) It downplays the fact that there's only ONE report of 600,000 poeple.  Not 600,000 reports.
2) It ignores the complete blind faith we're taught to have.
3) There are other - more recent - mass revelations that we obviously don't believe in.  I.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

An event in front of 600,000 is not a make uppable event.

That's the whole point.

http://www.aish.com/jl/p/ph/Did_God_Speak_at_Sinai.html

I think there is a very basic misunderstanding here. There is not "one report" of 600,000 people witnessing matan torah. There is not "one report" of yetizias mitzrayim.
Since the 15th of Nissan 2448, and the 6 of Sivan 50 days later, 600,000 people have been celebrating, memorializing and relaying the facts of yetizas mitzrayim and matan torah. 
This is an ongoing continuation of hundreds of years of seder nights being celebrated in exactly the same way, with the same facts relayed. There has been no disconnect, no doubts, and no rebuttals.

[yitrap]

We're told we're not allowed to question chazal, gedolim, etc.,

There's a huge difference between אמונה פשוטה and questioning chazal.

[Aaaron]

+100000000
I was always encouraged to find answers to questions. I used to call R Avigdor Miller all the time during bein hasdorim together with a friend and discuss these types of things. He used to tell us to call him back for anything. I don't remember all the answers he gave us, but we used ask him things like why shouldn't I become a buddhist and he used to give lengthy answers to everything.
Even Ruach Hakodesh would be difficult to explain a statement of "you guys allheard Hashem"The thunder and lightning were a "side show" to the aseres hadibros. Moshe talks primarily how they "heard" Hashem. That is like the bun without the hot dog.

But no one says "you guys all heard HaShem."  It's all "they heard Hashem." 

I think there is a very basic misunderstanding here. There is not "one report" of 600,000 people witnessing matan torah. There is not "one report" of yetizias mitzrayim.
Since the 15th of Nissan 2448, and the 6 of Sivan 50 days later, 600,000 people have been celebrating, memorializing and relaying the facts of yetizas mitzrayim and matan torah. 
This is an ongoing continuation of hundreds of years of seder nights being celebrated in exactly the same way, with the same facts relayed. There has been no disconnect, no doubts, and no rebuttals.

I disagree.  It all boils down to one report because nothing has been documented from those times with the exception of the Torah.  Which, by the way, there are no known Torahs any where near that old.  So there is no indication that it's been passed down from 2448.  There is zero documentation of an ongoing celebration since those days, so to claim there has been no disconnect, no doubts, etc. is false.  Whereby...

Ultimately it comes down to belief.

There's a huge difference between אמונה פשוטה and questioning chazal.

What's the difference in this context?

[aygart]

But no one says "you guys all heard HaShem."  It's all "they heard Hashem." 

I disagree.  It all boils down to one report because nothing has been documented from those times with the exception of the Torah.  Which, by the way, there are no known Torahs any where near that old.  So there is no indication that it's been passed down from 2448.  There is zero documentation of an ongoing celebration since those days, so to claim there has been no disconnect, no doubts, etc. is false.  Whereby...

What's the difference in this context?

In devarim it states "you heard Hashem" we heard from our parents who heard from theirs etc etc that needed to start somewhere. How do you start having an entire nation saying that they heard from their parents etc. that their grandparents were there?

I recommend that you read R Millers books which discuss these points at great length as well as other questions you may have.

[Aaaron]

In devarim it states "you heard Hashem" we heard from our parents who heard from theirs etc etc that needed to start somewhere. How do you start having an entire nation saying that they heard from their parents etc. that their grandparents were there?

I recommend that you read R Millers books which discuss these points at great length as well as other questions you may have.

I'm sure I read it when I was younger.  I was very into him in HS. 

To answer your question, plenty of fables have spread and been interpreted by various religions as being gospel.  All it takes is one trustworthy guy and a handful of trusting followers.  Look no further than Mormonism for a recent example.  "...needed to start somewhere."  Yeah, it could have started a thousand years later.  That's my point. 

[aygart]

I'm sure I read it when I was younger.  I was very into him in HS. 

To answer your question, plenty of fables have spread and been interpreted by various religions as being gospel.  All it takes is one trustworthy guy and a handful of trusting followers.  Look no further than Mormonism for a recent example.  "...needed to start somewhere."  Yeah, it could have started a thousand years later.  That's my point. 

None of these fables are a claim that they were told something by their father when they werent afaik

[Aaaron]

None of these fables are a claim that they were told something by their father when they werent afaik

Not sure I follow your point.  There's nothing that stops that believable originator from saying "my father heard from his father who heard..."