Yehudi>Medaber>Chai>Tzomeach>Domem?

[good sam]

Not sure I follow your point.  There's nothing that stops that believable originator from saying "my father heard from his father who heard..."

But the refutation to such a claim is far too strong.  If you claim a million people heard G-d speak, why are you the only one who has an account of it?

The proof used by Aish is that nobody ever would have been able to pull off such a lie.

[Aaaron]

But the refutation to such a claim is far too strong.  If you claim a million people heard G-d speak, why are you the only one who has an account of it?

The proof used by Aish is that nobody ever would have been able to pull off such a lie.

Again, the refutation to the refutation is the Mormons.  And again, all it takes is one person whom people claim is infallible to spread it.  It's clearly not such a stretch as it's been done before. 

[good sam]

Again, the refutation to the refutation is the Mormons.  And again, all it takes is one person whom people claim is infallible to spread it.  It's clearly not such a stretch as it's been done before.

Mormon was one person so not a good analogy.

The sun miracle is a good analogy. Some say it was an optical phenomenon rather than a cosmic one, but either way, you have to admit that something happened. Just from reading the Wikipedia article, I'm convinced that the eyewitness accounts are real.

[jj1000]

Comparing the Sinai proof to Joseph Smith's claims shows a lack of understanding the "proof".

If you are looking for 100% proof you are wasting your time, if you are looking for why this could be better than that you can get somewhere.

[Baruch]

If you are looking for 100% proof you are wasting your time, if you are looking for why this could be better than that you can get somewhere.

+1000

[aygart]

Not sure I follow your point.  There's a lot that stops that believable originator from saying "your father heard from his father who heard..."

FTFY

[Aaaron]

Mormon was one person so not a good analogy.

The sun miracle is a good analogy. Some say it was an optical phenomenon rather than a cosmic one, but either way, you have to admit that something happened. Just from reading the Wikipedia article, I'm convinced that the eyewitness accounts are real.

I think the Mormon analogy is better. It shows the power of one powerful and charismatic person with a group of people looking for something to believe in.

[Aaaron]

FTFY

Such as?

[Aaaron]

Comparing the Sinai proof to Joseph Smith's claims shows a lack of understanding the "proof".

If you are looking for 100% proof you are wasting your time, if you are looking for why this could be better than that you can get somewhere.

And that's why it all boils down to belief, which I think we can all agree on.

[aygart]

I think the Mormon analogy is better. It shows the power of one powerful and charismatic person with a group of people looking for something to believe in.

He can convince them that he saw something but not that they themselves saw it or heard from their fathers who saw it.

[aygart]

Not sure I follow your point.  There's nothing that stops that believable originator from saying "you heard it from your father who heard from his father who heard..."

FTFM

[yakrot]

I think the Mormon analogy is better. It shows the power of one powerful and charismatic person with a group of people looking for something to believe in.

a charismatic person can convince ppl that he had a revelation (Mohammed) did the same thing.   No matter how charismatic a person is he can't convince thousands of ppl that they themselves saw something.

[Aaaron]

a charismatic person can convince ppl that he had a revelation (Mohammed) did the same thing.   No matter how charismatic a person is he can't convince thousands of ppl that they themselves saw something.

And no one ever did. I think you're missing the point, that the whole thing may have started ages later with that person saying that "500 years ago xyz happened and x amount of people saw it. I heard about it from my father who heard it from his, etc."

[aygart]

And no one ever did. I think you're missing the point, that the whole thing may have started ages later with that person saying that "500 years ago xyz happened and x amount of people saw it. I heard about it from my father who heard it from his, etc."

You are missing that all jews hear that they heard from their father etc who was there! No matter how many time I and others repeat it you keep leaving that point out!

[Baruch]

You are missing that all jews hear that they heard from their father etc who was there! No matter how many time I and others repeat it you keep leaving that point out!

This is the checkmate.
@Aaaron, please respond directly to that argument.

[churnbabychurn]

You are missing that all jews hear that they heard from their father etc who was there! No matter how many time I and others repeat it you keep leaving that point out!

Emuna is a tricky thing. - As the balei mussar explain, he who does not want to believe, will never believe. No matter what he sees, feels, hears or knows.

I'm not saying that anyone here is not a maamin, just that it is a difficult thing to convince people of. No matter how obvious. 

[Aaaron]

You are missing that all jews hear that they heard from their father etc who was there! No matter how many time I and others repeat it you keep leaving that point out!

This is the checkmate.
@Aaaron, please respond directly to that argument.

Because that's an unverifiable fact!  There is no corroborating evidence that the mesorah is unbroken for thousands of years, there's no corroboration that it really wasn't a made up story along the way with that bit about patrilineal passings-on being added for effect.  Some people chose to believe it.

1000 years from now all Mormons are going to hear that Joseph Smith found whatever in a field and spoke to God.  Where are they going to hear it?  From their fathers, who heard it from their fathers.  Would it be a better analogy if Joseph Smith claimed 1 million people from 500 years ago heard God speak to them?  Maybe.  But the point still stands.  The Mesorah we have about Har Sinai and it being passed down from father to son started somewhere.  The question is, did it start at Har Sinai, or did it start later on.  Again, there is 1 report of what happened at Har Sinai.  If there were 600,000, obviously this would be a different conversation.

Let me know if I misunderstood the question.

[Aaaron]

Emuna is a tricky thing. - As the balei mussar explain, he who does not want to believe, will never believe. No matter what he sees, feels, hears or knows.

I'm not saying that anyone here is not a maamin, just that it is a difficult thing to convince people of. No matter how obvious.

So we can all agree:

Ultimately it comes down to belief.

Some of you seem to be avoiding that and claiming that it's all perfectly logical and may even be provable.

[aygart]

Because that's an unverifiable fact!  There is no corroborating evidence that the mesorah is unbroken for thousands of years, there's no corroboration that it really wasn't a made up story along the way with that bit about patrilineal passings-on being added for effect.  Some people chose to believe it.

1000 years from now all Mormons are going to hear that Joseph Smith found whatever in a field and spoke to God.  Where are they going to hear it?  From their fathers, who heard it from their fathers.  Would it be a better analogy if Joseph Smith claimed 1 million people from 500 years ago heard God speak to them?  Maybe.  But the point still stands.  The Mesorah we have about Har Sinai and it being passed down from father to son started somewhere.  The question is, did it start at Har Sinai, or did it start later on.  Again, there is 1 report of what happened at Har Sinai.  If there were 600,000, obviously this would be a different conversation.

Let me know if I misunderstood the question.

How does it get started that it was our own forefathers not some random group of people?

[churnbabychurn]

So we can all agree:

Some of you seem to be avoiding that and claiming that it's all perfectly logical and may even be provable.

I said it ultimately all comes to free choice. There is always a mokom for the shoitim to err. Gehinom would be vacant otherwise.