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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 293565 times)

Offline henche

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1220 on: January 14, 2016, 10:24:04 AM »
So let me get this straight rav shmuel aurbach read on ddf or daastorah that there's a hock he picked up the phone called rav Feldman got the story didn't call the rabbonim involved and wrote the letter and sent a press release to all the gossip sites. Got it.

mistama he read it on the bulletin board in yeshiva

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1221 on: January 14, 2016, 10:30:13 AM »
So let me get this straight rav shmuel aurbach read on ddf or daastorah that there's a hock he picked up the phone called rav Feldman got the story didn't call the rabbonim involved and wrote the letter and sent a press release to all the gossip sites. Got it.

Now you sound ridiculous.
So R' Aurbach has to log in online to hear about this story?

I think your propaganda strategy of "deflect, deflect, deflect" is a little too obvious.
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Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1222 on: January 14, 2016, 10:33:19 AM »
Now you sound ridiculous.
So R' Aurbach has to log in online to hear about this story?

I think your propaganda strategy of "deflect, deflect, deflect" is a little too obvious.

There is a point he is getting at which is that there is obviously someone going around organizing it. Who is it and where does that person fit into this whole parsha? I see everyone deflecting his question.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1223 on: January 14, 2016, 10:35:58 AM »
There is a point he is getting at which is that there is obviously someone going around organizing it. Who is it and where does that person fit into this whole parsha? I see everyone deflecting his question.

Why does it matter?
Why attack the messenger and not the message?
Are you worried about misinformation clouding their ability to judge correctly?

Do you also believe that someone fooled R' Feldman into his protest?
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Offline elit

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1224 on: January 14, 2016, 10:40:22 AM »
Now you sound ridiculous.
So R' Aurbach has to log in online to hear about this story?

I think your propaganda strategy of "deflect, deflect, deflect" is a little too obvious.
Huh? I have no stake in this at all. My question isn't even really about this particular case it's in general when these machas get sent out? I am sincerely trying to understand the process (and hoping it's not the same as kol koreas)

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1225 on: January 14, 2016, 10:49:53 AM »
Why does it matter?
Why attack the messenger and not the message?
Are you worried about misinformation clouding their ability to judge correctly?

Do you also believe that someone fooled R' Feldman into his protest?
I do not have any belief either way about the matter, but it does make a difference if information given is one sided.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline henche

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1226 on: January 14, 2016, 10:51:08 AM »


Do you also believe that someone fooled R' Feldman into his protest?

Nobody fools rabbi feldman into anything. He's very savvy.

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1227 on: January 14, 2016, 11:55:31 AM »
Huh? I have no stake in this at all. My question isn't even really about this particular case it's in general when these machas get sent out? I am sincerely trying to understand the process (and hoping it's not the same as kol koreas)
What happens in general?
People print up an announcement, sign a bunch of names and publicize the announcement.

In better scenarios they convince one person of stature to sign and then everyone else signs since they are relying on the first person.

Offline ckmk47

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1228 on: January 14, 2016, 12:04:46 PM »

In better scenarios they convince one person of stature to sign and then everyone else signs since they are relying on the first person.
I think that sums up one flaw in the system today.
I think each Rabbi should do his own investigation or at least proper questioning of each thing he signs. Rabbis and Battei Dinim should not become a gang at one person's instigation, no matter how chosuv that person is.
For example, a heter meah rabbanim should mean bringing one's case before each bais din and then getting support.  Not just convincing one bais din and then matching that status in every bais din across the country.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 12:09:01 PM by ckmk47 »
My favorite cause: cssy.org

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1229 on: January 14, 2016, 12:15:02 PM »
@elit,

Did you not see the correspondence between R Shmuel and the badatz before the put out their machoah?

You implication that the gedolim who signed against this travesty are merely shooting from the hip is chutzpah, loshon hora and a bizayon hatorah.
Just stop.
If you want to defend the heter, be my guest. But don't even try to delegitemize the vast majority of the Torah world and their leaders who are horrified.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1230 on: January 14, 2016, 12:20:04 PM »
@elit,

Did you not see the correspondence between R Shmuel and the badatz before the put out their machoah?

You implication that the gedolim who signed against this travesty are merely shooting from the hip is chutzpah, loshon hora and a bizayon hatorah.
Just stop.
If you want to defend the heter, be my guest. But don't even try to delegitemize the vast majority of the Torah world and their leaders who are horrified.
+1
There was correspondence where Rebbe Shmuel sent R Weiss of the Eidah asking him not to condemn the Heter.

As I mentioned before a lot of the Rabonim knew about this before it happened.

Offline elit

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1231 on: January 14, 2016, 12:21:21 PM »
@elit,

Did you not see the correspondence between R Shmuel and the badatz before the put out their machoah?

You implication that the gedolim who signed against this travesty are merely shooting from the hip is chutzpah, loshon hora and a bizayon hatorah.
Just stop.
If you want to defend the heter, be my guest. But don't even try to delegitemize the vast majority of the Torah world and their leaders who are horrified.
No I did not see that correspondence. Where do I find that.
I am not defending the heter at all I know nothing about this case and wouldn't get involved on any level between ppl much more learned than i. The only time I have ever involved myself in this was to question the legitimacy of ppl here attacking gedolim or relying/ reading anything on that website (which BTW you ignored). I was asking a simple question to actually hear the answer not to imply anything. Also I love  how you get so upset about my supposed attack on gedolim when you have had no hesitation to take sides and attack other gedolim throughout this thread.

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1232 on: January 14, 2016, 12:24:33 PM »
No I did not see that correspondence. Where do I find that.
I am not defending the heter at all I know nothing about this case and wouldn't get involved on any level between ppl much more learned than i. The only time I have ever involved myself in this was to question the legitimacy of ppl here attacking gedolim or relying/ reading anything on that website (which BTW you ignored). I was asking a simple question to actually hear the answer not to imply anything. Also I love  how you get so upset about my supposed attack on gedolim when you have had no hesitation to take sides and attack other gedolim throughout this thread.
+10000000000000 Any time someone asks any sort of question at all they take it very personally.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1233 on: January 14, 2016, 01:25:43 PM »
No I did not see that correspondence. Where do I find that.


  I was asking a simple question to actually hear the answer not to imply anything.

It's posted here not far upthread.

Your question is absolutely silly if it didn't contain any implications of impropriety on behalf of the gedolim.

What are you asking, how they obtain information??
How about a telephone? Fax? Mail and email?
Why are you cynically implying that they must visit blogs that you deem inappropriate? What is your question exactly?

I simply don't accept your response as honest.

Offline elit

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1234 on: January 14, 2016, 01:46:34 PM »
It's posted here not far upthread.

Your question is absolutely silly if it didn't contain any implications of impropriety on behalf of the gedolim.

What are you asking, how they obtain information??
How about a telephone? Fax? Mail and email?
Why are you cynically implying that they must visit blogs that you deem inappropriate? What is your question exactly?

I simply don't accept your response as honest.
That cynical response was to yuneeq that said it was a very simple process he just had to pick up the phone to call...

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1235 on: January 14, 2016, 01:51:56 PM »
What do you think would be his motive for this?
Probably the same reason why they wrote letters saying that the husband was mechyuv to give a Get, supported demonstrations against him, tried to get him fired from his job and signed a bogus seruv along with Wolmark.
You would have to asked them what the reason is.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1236 on: January 14, 2016, 02:20:25 PM »
It's posted here not far upthread.

Your question is absolutely silly if it didn't contain any implications of impropriety on behalf of the gedolim.

What are you asking, how they obtain information??
How about a telephone? Fax? Mail and email?
Why are you cynically implying that they must visit blogs that you deem inappropriate? What is your question exactly?

I simply don't accept your response as honest.

+100

That cynical response was to yuneeq that said it was a very simple process he just had to pick up the phone to call...

It's true, all you have to do is make some phone calls.
And yes, my reply was in response to your assumption that the gedolim didn't investigate and have no clue what they were being Mocha.
You say you don't take sides but you keep repeating the same cynical lines and ignore what anyone else says.
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Offline elit

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1237 on: January 14, 2016, 02:26:04 PM »
+100

It's true, all you have to do is make some phone calls.
And yes, my reply was in response to your assumption that the gedolim didn't investigate and have no clue what they were being Mocha.
You say you don't take sides but you keep repeating the same cynical lines and ignore what anyone else says.
OK I am going to remove myself fromb this conversation bc it did not go where I intended and certainly do not want to be dragged into this story

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1238 on: January 14, 2016, 03:00:27 PM »
Probably the same reason why they wrote letters saying that the husband was mechyuv to give a Get, supported demonstrations against him, tried to get him fired from his job and signed a bogus seruv along with Wolmark.
You would have to asked them what the reason is.
Your "answer" only makes the questioon greater.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1239 on: January 14, 2016, 03:05:40 PM »
OK I am going to remove myself fromb this conversation bc it did not go where I intended and certainly do not want to be dragged into this story
Fine, you're free to go.

Just for the record. I didn't respond to your accusations against me because this thread is not about me. - Don't for a second take my silence as any concession or agreement to any of them.