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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 285171 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1260 on: January 18, 2016, 10:57:27 AM »
I think most roshei yeshiva aren't writing letters because they don't get involved in things like this.
That's not going to change now
Let's just wait and see..

Offline Boruch999

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1261 on: January 18, 2016, 12:48:29 PM »
I think most roshei yeshiva aren't writing letters because they don't get involved in things like this.
That's not going to change now
R Shternbuch holds they are obligated to get involved.




R Moshe Shternbuch

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1262 on: January 19, 2016, 01:30:43 PM »
Rav Shlomo Miller already wrote a few letters....
And again


Offline shiframeir

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1263 on: January 19, 2016, 09:25:11 PM »
Somewhat related and in any event interesting post on the seforim blog, and a great quote from the Seridei Eish to R Unterman: http://seforim.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-agunah-problem-part-1-incarceration.html
ואגלה להדר"ג [הגרא"י אונטרמן] מה שבלבי: שמקום שיש מחלוקת הראשונים צריכים הרבנים להכריע נגד אותה הדעה, שהיא רחוקה מדעת הבריות וגורמת לזלזול וללעג נגד תוה"ק

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1264 on: January 19, 2016, 10:44:58 PM »
Somewhat related and in any event interesting post on the seforim blog, and a great quote from the Seridei Eish to R Unterman: http://seforim.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-agunah-problem-part-1-incarceration.html
ואגלה להדר"ג [הגרא"י אונטרמן] מה שבלבי: שמקום שיש מחלוקת הראשונים צריכים הרבנים להכריע נגד אותה הדעה, שהיא רחוקה מדעת הבריות וגורמת לזלזול וללעג נגד תוה"ק

He discusses the instant case in the comments:

Marc 35 minutes ago
Quote
Originally I had an entire paragraph dealing with it which I wrote two months ago. I went on about how the IBD is being attacked while no one is saying a word about how two haredi rabbis have annulled a marriage, doing something much more radical than was ever done by the IBD. I had to delete it because in the last month no one cares anymore about the IBD and we see that many big haredi rabbis are indeed going after Rabbis Greenblatt and Kamenetsky.

As for the substance of the annulment, going only on what I have read (and maybe there is other information not publicly available), it appears to be a complete perversion of all halakhic standards. There is no way one can annul a marriage in this fashion without legitimizing the Rackman beit din. But what can they do now? Tell the woman she has to divorce her new husband? This would be a great personal tragedy for someone who has already suffered a great deal and she only got married because she was told it was OK. Also, think what it will do to emunat hakhamim if the head rabbi of the Agudah has to publicly declare that he made such a terrible mistake.

To clarify, I have no information other than what I have read in the press. My judgment that this appears to be a terrible error is based on what I have read, and also based on what R. Hershel Schachter has recently said about the case. I hope that this is incorrect and that more information comes out. But if not, all it shows is that even great people (and R. Kamenetsky and R. Greenblatt are both great scholars with decades of good deeds and service to the Jewish people) can also make a serious mistake. It should be enough to point this out without trying to destroy them. Obviously there are troublemakers out there going from rabbi to rabbi getting them to sign documents attacking R. Kamenetsky and R. Greenblatt. Are these people doing this to uphold halakhah or to settle partisan scores?

But we saw this with what they did to R. Goren also. Unfortunately, halakhic disagreements turning into character assassination is nothing new.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1265 on: January 19, 2016, 10:48:07 PM »
That comment encapsulates my thoughts completely
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Iz

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1266 on: January 19, 2016, 11:12:16 PM »
"Marc" was quoted above:
"It should be enough to point this out without trying to destroy them. Obviously there are troublemakers out there going from rabbi to rabbi getting them to sign documents attacking R. Kamenetsky and R. Greenblatt. Are these people doing this to uphold halakhah or to settle partisan scores?"

"Pointing it out" is what you do if someone erred regarding saying Av Harachamim, not in an issue of this magnitude, for this woman and for klal yisroel. Marc may be right if they (the matirim) would admit their mistake (which Marc admits it is), but they are not. So why shouldn't everyone be protesting? The avlah is still ongoing. It is inconceivable that even now, they have still not explained their position (in any serious way).

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1267 on: January 19, 2016, 11:15:36 PM »
Who is Marc?

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1268 on: January 19, 2016, 11:17:27 PM »
You missed the point. There is a different between protesting and character assassination. I don't think he has a problem with Rav faivel Cohen or Rav Shlomo Miller's letter
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1269 on: January 19, 2016, 11:20:27 PM »
You missed the point. There is a different between protesting and character assassination. I don't think he has a problem with Rav faivel Cohen or Rav Shlomo Miller's letter

When rabbonim sign multiple letters saying that this is litteraly a cardinal sin, there is very little character left to assassinate.


Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1270 on: January 19, 2016, 11:35:40 PM »
When rabbonim sign multiple letters saying that this is litteraly a cardinal sin, there is very little character left to assassinate.


So you're saying that Rav Shmuel has no character? Maybe you want to reformulate that?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1271 on: January 19, 2016, 11:56:31 PM »
So you're saying that Rav Shmuel has no character? Maybe you want to reformulate that?
No. I'm saying that letters saying that a cardinal sin is being committed are in essence disqualifying whoever is responsible for the sin.

These "protest" letters are not normal halachic tesuvos regarding disagreements in pesak.

You can't be called out for eshes ish and get sechar like pinchas. - what you are saying is all very nice and PC, but impossible.

Offline a mirrer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1272 on: January 20, 2016, 08:33:53 AM »
No. I'm saying that letters saying that a cardinal sin is being committed are in essence disqualifying whoever is responsible for the sin.

These "protest" letters are not normal halachic tesuvos regarding disagreements in pesak.

You can't be called out for eshes ish and get sechar like pinchas. - what you are saying is all very nice and PC, but impossible.
plus when they refuse to be chozer then character assassination maybe called for

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1273 on: January 20, 2016, 08:38:35 AM »
And that's where we'll agree to disagree.
Again, we don't know the details of what actually went down.
My understanding is that Rav Shlomo Miller doesn't think Rav Shmuel was involved with heter. So there's that. And we don't know what Rav nota did or believes. And if they made a taus bshogeg not sure that pasuls everything else they ever did
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1274 on: January 20, 2016, 08:46:58 AM »
And if they made a taus bshogeg not sure that pasuls everything else they ever did
if (don't know if its the case here but hypothetically) they aren't chozer when the mistake is pointed out to them then yes it does call for inspection of every psak of theirs since that means their ego is bigger then their yiryas shamayim

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1275 on: January 20, 2016, 08:54:46 AM »
Yes if someone would bmeizid be matir an wishes ish they would be passul l'edus, etc. (Not technically azaken mamreh :P)
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1276 on: January 20, 2016, 09:01:53 AM »
Yes if someone would bmeizid be matir an wEishes ish they would be passul l'edus, etc. (Not technically azaken mamreh :P)
FTFY

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1277 on: January 20, 2016, 09:31:58 AM »
If not for those who immediately made this into a personal vendetta this would probably have been resolved long ago.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1278 on: January 20, 2016, 10:17:12 AM »
If not for those who immediately made this into a personal vendetta this would probably have been resolved long ago.
Don't understand what you are saying. How would it be resolved and who is preventing the resolution?

Offline henche

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1279 on: January 20, 2016, 10:53:43 AM »
If not for those who immediately made this into a personal vendetta this would probably have been resolved long ago.

personal vendetta? Besides for the bloggers, I haven't seen any of that.