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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 135709 times)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1605 on: March 30, 2016, 09:25:19 AM »
What's the difference between chillul shabbos and eishes ish, may I ask you? Why does one warrant your machah more than the other? And there are plenty of people being oiver on kol harayos chamuros (bechol prateha, dikdukeha, vetoeivoseha). I don't see how this anybody sticking in their opinion qualifies as a machah, or what your machah over here or anywhere this is being discussed stands to accomplish.

Good question.
But the answer is very simple.
If a Gadol/Gedolim would mattir using a smartphone or cooking food on Shabbos there would also be similar backlash, and not just from Rabbonim.

Quote
If there was no heter here, and she just decided that she was done with frumkeit and wants to marry someone without a get, you wouldn't bat an eyelash.

No kidding, dude.
But you can't rewrite history, because there was a heter here.
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Offline Sammy82

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1606 on: March 30, 2016, 09:43:19 AM »
I'm just curious- all of you people out there that are being mezalzel Rabbonim (you know who you are), who do you consider the gedolia hador? Have they come out publicly and bashed the rabbonim? Or did they just make a macha against the heter? To the best of my knowledge (and I may be wrong as I don't know much about this case) it's been strictly the latter. No respected person in their right mind will chas v'shalom say the things that has been said here. And for good reason. I do know that none of my rabbiem, rabbonim, or people that I look up to have bashed any of the people involved, only the heter that may be tied to them.

//.02

Offline CS91

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1607 on: March 30, 2016, 09:51:38 AM »
Wow. I'm quite sure I couldn't have said it better myself.

Well done.
I second that. Wish this thread would have never come into existence.

Offline David Smith

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1608 on: March 30, 2016, 09:52:21 AM »
Good question.
But the answer is very simple.
If a Gadol/Gedolim would mattir using a smartphone or cooking food on Shabbos there would also be similar backlash, and not just from Rabbonim.

OK. So we clarified that you're protesting the heter, not the nevuluh being done. The heter is based on a concept that everyone agrees exists. The question is whether or not it applies in this specific case. Additionally, this is an area where everything is judged on a case by case matter. Therefore, I don't see how this compares to the shabbos switch, for example, in regards to being pertinent to anybody, which would justify their discussing it. Unless our gedolim have issued a  statement telling people they are obligated to mocheh the mattirim, I don't see how anyone feels they have the right to do so.
If you'll notice, all the kol koreis (that I've seen) carefully avoid condemning the mattirim or calling their yiras shamayim and yedias hatorah into question. Obviously, the gedolim writing them weren't as qualified as the erstwhile posters on this thread to make such a  statement.

Quote
No kidding, dude.
But you can't rewrite history, because there was a heter here.
I was responding to his claim that people felt obligated to be mocheh the aveirah being done. I was just pointing out that if the aveirah would've been done without any pretenses, nobody besides for those involved or in the capacity to have a positive impact would've said a word.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 09:55:34 AM by David Smith »
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Offline ckmk47

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1609 on: March 30, 2016, 10:04:45 AM »
OK. So we clarified that you're protesting the heter, not the nevuluh being done. The heter is based on a concept that everyone agrees exists. The question is whether or not it applies in this specific case.
I think the reason this thread, and I assume elsewhere, degenerated into Rabbi insulting was because of the way the this case was investigated and shepherded through the process of discovering whether the concept applies in this specific case.


disclaimer: A mentsh speaks with respect to everyone, especially those who add Torah and mitzvos to klal yisroel.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1610 on: March 30, 2016, 10:11:37 AM »

OK. So we clarified that you're protesting the heter, not the nevuluh being done. The heter is based on a concept that everyone agrees exists. The question is whether or not it applies in this specific case. Additionally, this is an area where everything is judged on a case by case matter. Therefore, I don't see how this compares to the shabbos switch, for example, in regards to being pertinent to anybody, which would justify their discussing it. Unless our gedolim have issued a  statement telling people they are obligated to mocheh the mattirim, I don't see how anyone feels they have the right to do so.

There are times when using a smartphone on shabbos is muttar too. Like calling an ambulance for pikuach nefesh.
Now if a Rov says you can use a smartphone even without pikuach nefesh, is that ok? No.

Now yes, there is a concept of bitul kiddushin if a husband is certifiably insane - even though its controversial, let's assume we hold that it works 100%. If a Rov says that their is bitul kiddushin where the husband is completely sane, you must protest too.
The Rov is setting a very bad precedent by stretching the heter to a use case where it simply doesn't exist.
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Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1611 on: March 30, 2016, 10:34:13 AM »
The distance some will go to defend a few widely-condemned rogue Rabbanim because of identity politics.....

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1612 on: March 30, 2016, 11:13:20 AM »
Of course it is all about the hetter.

The hetter that was a colossal chillul hashem, sereifas hatorah and zillzul bechol Dover shebikdusha.

Oy ledor shkach olsah beyomov.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1613 on: March 30, 2016, 11:24:04 AM »
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1614 on: March 30, 2016, 11:32:19 AM »
Until then, please don't throw stones out of your brick house.

Maybe shy away from any idioms/descriptive adjectives until you grab a dictionary, sweetheart.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #1615 on: March 30, 2016, 12:34:49 PM »
Locked for further review.
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