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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 280397 times)

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #200 on: November 10, 2015, 01:31:01 PM »
Let's say she broke into his house, beat him up and stole his money. Even then, you think withholding a Get as punishment is less than pure evil? I just can't see that side. Am I the only one?
It's not a punishment its just to get her back to BD to resolve it in a Jewish way not just the way she wants

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #201 on: November 10, 2015, 01:33:16 PM »
I have no clue to the facts of the Tamar Epstein case.

But if a man feels that the courts took away his visitation rights unfairly.

And he believes that his (ex) wife is acting unfairly.

I see no reason why he shouldn't use a get as leverage.

I'm sure you would too. Can you imagine losing the right to see your children?


If she used unfair tactics (lying) in the power struggle, so should you!

"If a man feels that the courts took away his visitation rights unfairly"

If "he believes that his (ex) wife is acting unfairly"

Both of those are subjective; a Court sits as an unbiased arbiter of the "best interests of the child."

(Easy for me to talk not being in the situation, but facts are facts.)

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Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #202 on: November 10, 2015, 01:35:02 PM »
If she used unfair tactics (lying) in the power struggle, so should you!

How is this Torah?

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #203 on: November 10, 2015, 01:36:45 PM »
"If a man feels that the courts took away his visitation rights unfairly"

If "he believes that his (ex) wife is acting unfairly"

Both of those are subjective; a Court sits as an unbiased arbiter of the "best interests of the child."

(Easy for me to talk not being in the situation, but facts are facts.)
Agreed.
But anyone who believes the court is wrong will use the get tactic.

If you should trust the court over the husband is a different story.

Online skyguy918

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #204 on: November 10, 2015, 01:37:13 PM »
How is this Torah?
Does the Torah say he has to divorce her?

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #205 on: November 10, 2015, 01:37:16 PM »
How is this Torah?
Why is withholding the get unfair? He is using his only leverage to make things right

Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #206 on: November 10, 2015, 01:38:44 PM »
Does the Torah say he has to divorce her?
I thought that was the dominant opinion. But I could be much less learned than the oylem here.

Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #207 on: November 10, 2015, 01:41:19 PM »
Why is withholding the get unfair? He is using his only leverage to make things rightgo against the court's ruling to get what he wants
Who considers it "right" beside the man's side? Call it what it is. It's not his only leverage, I mean, most men are physically built more muscular and dominant than women, he could probably use physical chains to bind her to his house if he wanted.

Online yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #208 on: November 10, 2015, 01:41:39 PM »
besides for kesuba

Agreed,  I used the word "unfairly".

Let's say she broke into his house, beat him up and stole his money. Even then, you think withholding a Get as "punishment" is less than pure evil? I just can't see that side. Am I the only one?

Very simple.
If she followes Halacha, then she returns the money and he gives the get.
If she doesn't follow Halacha, what's the get worth to her? Nothing. She can marry whoever she likes.
The only one getting tortured is him.
Visibly Jewish

Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #209 on: November 10, 2015, 01:44:10 PM »
Agreed,  I used the word "unfairly".

Very simple.
If she followes Halacha, then she returns the money and he gives the get.
If she doesn't follow Halacha, what's the get worth to her? Nothing. She can marry whoever she likes.
The only one getting tortured is him.
She violated halacha by going to secular courts? If yes: sometimes I wake up late and don't daven. Because I struggle with that are you saying shabbas and kosher and 613 other things are "worth nothing" to me? Said another way, are you claiming to be perfect?

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #210 on: November 10, 2015, 01:44:44 PM »
Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #211 on: November 10, 2015, 01:45:06 PM »
Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?
no

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #212 on: November 10, 2015, 01:45:58 PM »
Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?
Rabbi Mendel Epstein. ;)

Bais Din puts a Cherem on the husband. No one's allowed to talk to him.

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #213 on: November 10, 2015, 01:46:47 PM »


Who considers it "right" beside the man's side?

I'll just play devil's advocate here who considers it wrong only the women's side...

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #214 on: November 10, 2015, 01:47:06 PM »
Agreed.
But anyone who believes the court is wrong will use the get tactic.

If you should trust the court over the husband is a different story.

The question is not what people do. Some people rape, rob, and murder.

The question under discussion is what people *should* do.

And, yes, barring some extraordinary circumstance, I'd trust a non-biased evaluator over a biased one.
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2015, 01:47:48 PM »
Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?
How often is it only  that?

Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #216 on: November 10, 2015, 01:48:04 PM »
Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?
no
No. There are plenty of organizations that advocate for these agunos ("chained" women) - they do things like have campaigns to help publicly shame the dudes, try to get them fired from their jobs, etc.
Rabbi Mendel Epstein
cattle prod guy?

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #217 on: November 10, 2015, 01:48:09 PM »
Why is withholding the get unfair? He is using his only leverage to make things right

Again, a value judgment.

"Make things right?" What on earth does that mean?

Also, your first question pretty much exposes your position on this.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #218 on: November 10, 2015, 01:48:54 PM »
The question is not what people do. Some people rape, rob, and murder.

The question under discussion is what people *should* do.

And, yes, barring some extraordinary circumstance, I'd trust a non-biased evaluator over a biased one.
Bad people rape rob and murder.
Everybody who believes that the court is being unfair (possibly because he knows for a fact that his wife lied), will withold a get.

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #219 on: November 10, 2015, 01:49:17 PM »