The Tamar Epstein Saga

[yochiek93]

Let's say she broke into his house, beat him up and stole his money. Even then, you think withholding a Get as punishment is less than pure evil? I just can't see that side. Am I the only one?

It's not a punishment its just to get her back to BD to resolve it in a Jewish way not just the way she wants

[AJK]

I have no clue to the facts of the Tamar Epstein case.

But if a man feels that the courts took away his visitation rights unfairly.

And he believes that his (ex) wife is acting unfairly.

I see no reason why he shouldn't use a get as leverage.

I'm sure you would too. Can you imagine losing the right to see your children?


If she used unfair tactics (lying) in the power struggle, so should you!

"If a man feels that the courts took away his visitation rights unfairly"

If "he believes that his (ex) wife is acting unfairly"

Both of those are subjective; a Court sits as an unbiased arbiter of the "best interests of the child."

(Easy for me to talk not being in the situation, but facts are facts.)

[Redbull3]

If she used unfair tactics (lying) in the power struggle, so should you!

How is this Torah?

[Baruch]

"If a man feels that the courts took away his visitation rights unfairly"

If "he believes that his (ex) wife is acting unfairly"

Both of those are subjective; a Court sits as an unbiased arbiter of the "best interests of the child."

(Easy for me to talk not being in the situation, but facts are facts.)

Agreed.
But anyone who believes the court is wrong will use the get tactic.

If you should trust the court over the husband is a different story.

[skyguy918]

How is this Torah?

Does the Torah say he has to divorce her?

[yochiek93]

How is this Torah?

Why is withholding the get unfair? He is using his only leverage to make things right

[Redbull3]

Does the Torah say he has to divorce her?

I thought that was the dominant opinion. But I could be much less learned than the oylem here.

[Redbull3]

Why is withholding the get unfair? He is using his only leverage to make things rightgo against the court's ruling to get what he wants

Who considers it "right" beside the man's side? Call it what it is. It's not his only leverage, I mean, most men are physically built more muscular and dominant than women, he could probably use physical chains to bind her to his house if he wanted.

[yuneeq]

besides for kesuba

Agreed,  I used the word "unfairly".

Let's say she broke into his house, beat him up and stole his money. Even then, you think withholding a Get as "punishment" is less than pure evil? I just can't see that side. Am I the only one?

Very simple.
If she followes Halacha, then she returns the money and he gives the get.
If she doesn't follow Halacha, what's the get worth to her? Nothing. She can marry whoever she likes.
The only one getting tortured is him.

[Redbull3]

Agreed,  I used the word "unfairly".

Very simple.
If she followes Halacha, then she returns the money and he gives the get.
If she doesn't follow Halacha, what's the get worth to her? Nothing. She can marry whoever she likes.
The only one getting tortured is him.

She violated halacha by going to secular courts? If yes: sometimes I wake up late and don't daven. Because I struggle with that are you saying shabbas and kosher and 613 other things are "worth nothing" to me? Said another way, are you claiming to be perfect?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?

[dealfinder85]

Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?

no

[Baruch]

Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?

Rabbi Mendel Epstein.

Bais Din puts a Cherem on the husband. No one's allowed to talk to him.

[yochiek93]

Who considers it "right" beside the man's side?

I'll just play devil's advocate here who considers it wrong only the women's side...

[AJK]

Agreed.
But anyone who believes the court is wrong will use the get tactic.

If you should trust the court over the husband is a different story.

The question is not what people do. Some people rape, rob, and murder.

The question under discussion is what people *should* do.

And, yes, barring some extraordinary circumstance, I'd trust a non-biased evaluator over a biased one.

[yochiek93]

Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?

How often is it only  that?

[Redbull3]

Is there any recourse for the women if the man refuses to give a get just for pure spite?

no

No. There are plenty of organizations that advocate for these agunos ("chained" women) - they do things like have campaigns to help publicly shame the dudes, try to get them fired from their jobs, etc.

Rabbi Mendel Epstein

cattle prod guy?

[AJK]

Why is withholding the get unfair? He is using his only leverage to make things right

Again, a value judgment.

"Make things right?" What on earth does that mean?

Also, your first question pretty much exposes your position on this.

[Baruch]

The question is not what people do. Some people rape, rob, and murder.

The question under discussion is what people *should* do.

And, yes, barring some extraordinary circumstance, I'd trust a non-biased evaluator over a biased one.

Bad people rape rob and murder.
Everybody who believes that the court is being unfair (possibly because he knows for a fact that his wife lied), will withold a get.

[Baruch]

cattle prod guy?

yep