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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 284868 times)

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #240 on: November 10, 2015, 02:08:00 PM »
That's an issue.

This is going to sound weird coming from a secular court litigator, but if Gd-fearing Jew would have pursued his claims in BD, would have gotten a verdict more favorable than what was decided by a secular court (to which he was dragged against is will), I must say that in my view, the husband has a leg to stand on...

The courts are very feminist, they are not unbiased. The husband has a right to demand it all be settled according to halacha.

But does he?  They got married in the US and are bound by its laws and regulations.  These awards aren't kneged halacha necessarily, she's just getting more than a BD would have awarded her.

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #241 on: November 10, 2015, 02:08:05 PM »
The courts are very feminist, they are not unbiased. The husband has a right to demand it all be settled according to halacha.

Oiy. You see, your first statement flies off the handle, but somehow such an inane comment was salvaged by the latter.

Courts aren't "feminist." Courts--in this context--decide, as I've said twice already, in the best interests of the child. Many times that means finding that a child will be better off his his or her mother instead of the father. That doesn't a feminist make. Nor does it make a Court biased any more than saying a BD is biased because it follows halacha  ::)
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Offline avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #242 on: November 10, 2015, 02:14:43 PM »
Oiy. You see, your first statement flies off the handle, but somehow such an inane comment was salvaged by the latter.

Courts aren't "feminist." Courts--in this context--decide, as I've said twice already, in the best interests of the child. Many times that means finding that a child will be better off his his or her mother instead of the father. That doesn't a feminist make. Nor does it make a Court biased any more than saying a BD is biased because it follows halacha  ::)
Two unbiased people look at one scenario and come out with totally different conclusions, the court looks at it from a feminist point of view and the bais din looks at it from a halachik point of view, 9 out of 10 times they will conclude totally differently even though they are both "unbiased"
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #243 on: November 10, 2015, 02:15:57 PM »
Two unbiased people look at one scenario and come out with totally different conclusions, the court looks at it from a feminist point of view and the bais din looks at it from a halachik point of view, 9 out of 10 times they will conclude totally differently even though they are both "unbiased"
Both courts and Bais Din are feminist, if you define feminist as believing that in most cases the kids belong with their mom.

Offline avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #244 on: November 10, 2015, 02:20:47 PM »
Both courts and Bais Din are feminist, if you define feminist as believing that in most cases the kids belong with their mom.
Statistics of most have no relevance here, it is the way they look at the situation, the wife always gets the pity
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #245 on: November 10, 2015, 02:24:34 PM »
Why are you siding with the court as an unbiased arbiter and not the BD as an unbiased arbiter?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #246 on: November 10, 2015, 02:25:50 PM »
What I'm saying is that I don't believe that a man is ipso facto entitled to withhold the get simply because he decides that a Court "wronged him."

To be sure, it would appear the Torah gives him that right, but I'm not sure it's a "Torah value" to withhold a get without a valid, objective basis.


Considering that the husband is the one withholding the get it will almost by definition be based upon whether he feels wronged.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #247 on: November 10, 2015, 02:29:40 PM »




Separate question:  If she gets a monetary and custody award greater than what halacha would dictate, is she stealing/kidnapping?
Most definitely. She could be brought back to Beis din and charged with theft.


Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #248 on: November 10, 2015, 02:34:05 PM »
Both courts and Bais Din are feminist, if you define feminist as believing that in most cases the kids belong with their mom.

Ding ding ding.

Why are you siding with the court as an unbiased arbiter and not the BD as an unbiased arbiter?

I don't know if this is directed to me (use of the quote feature is helpful), but if it is, I am not siding with anyone.
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Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #249 on: November 10, 2015, 02:35:54 PM »
I don't know if this is directed to me (use of the quote feature is helpful), but if it is, I am not siding with anyone.
I was referring to Redbull but the specific quote was on a different page. You already wrote that he has a leg if she refused BD. The next was referring to you.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #250 on: November 10, 2015, 02:53:25 PM »
Both courts and Bais Din are feminist, if you define feminist as believing that in most cases the kids belong with their mom.
The issues are usually over things like barring the father from seeing his children at all or over money.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #251 on: November 10, 2015, 03:37:49 PM »
The issues are usually over things like barring the father from seeing his children at all or over money.
+1 custody is not visitation rights which alot of times the wife wants to prohibit for some reason or another

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #252 on: November 10, 2015, 05:35:54 PM »
Separate question:  If she gets a monetary and custody award greater than what halacha would dictate, is she stealing/kidnapping?
Definitely stealing. I assume kidnapping as well
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #253 on: November 10, 2015, 05:36:24 PM »
I heard from a very reputable source that Rav Shlomo Miller has a letter from Rav Shmuel that he had nothing to do with the heter.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #254 on: November 10, 2015, 05:37:10 PM »
I heard from a very reputable source that Rav Shlomo Miller has a letter from Rav Shmuel that he had nothing to do with the heter.
Can you get a hold of  it?

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #255 on: November 10, 2015, 05:37:43 PM »
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #256 on: November 10, 2015, 08:37:06 PM »
I also heard that R Shalom was the one "peddling" the heter 2 years ago to all the major poskim, supposedly with his father's approval, and with the exception of one all but one they were opposed to the heter. That is part of the reason why the poskim are mad because they warned R Shalom 2 years ago that it won't be accepted.
It's hard to understand how they are denying responsibility when they were the ones shopping it around.

Offline Iz

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #257 on: November 10, 2015, 09:07:44 PM »
I also heard that R Shalom was the one "peddling" the heter 2 years ago to all the major poskim, supposedly with his father's approval, and with the exception of one all but one they were opposed to the heter. That is part of the reason why the poskim are mad because they warned R Shalom 2 years ago that it won't be accepted.
It's hard to understand how they are denying responsibility when they were the ones shopping it around.
Who would that be?

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #258 on: November 10, 2015, 09:26:30 PM »
Who would that be?
R Notta Greenblatt

Offline Iz

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #259 on: November 10, 2015, 09:29:00 PM »
R Notta Greenblatt
That was pretty obvious. I don't know why I assumed it was someone else. ::)