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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 286702 times)

Offline Iz

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #300 on: November 19, 2015, 11:45:40 PM »
Explains both the letter denying it and the reason he didn't publicize it. I can't say you gain respect from speaking out of both sides of his mouth on this issue.

If you think it's ok, have guts, admit it and explain your halachik reasoning and face the fire. Perhaps many Rabbonim will agree.

I don't have much respect for the authors of this letter. I'm only referring to the point they quote him on which makes a lot of sense.

Ok, I'm going to be excoriated.
Why not? Is it due to something in this letter, or some other reason?

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #301 on: November 19, 2015, 11:46:55 PM »
"Clearly"? That's the last word I would use to describe our understanding of his opinion. I am utterly baffled by his silence on this.

It's pretty clear now actually.

1) He supports it.
2) He can send a secret letter that he didn't technically permit it to stave off some serious fire from all leading American Rabbonim from various factions.
3) He won't publicize that because he supports it.
4) שלום עלי נפשי

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #302 on: November 19, 2015, 11:48:21 PM »
Soon this thread is going to be merged into the vaccinations thread. It's Friday.

Offline cs50

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #303 on: November 19, 2015, 11:48:44 PM »

It's pretty clear now actually.

1) He supports it.
2) He can send a secret letter that he didn't technically permit it to stave off some serious fire from all leading American Rabbonim from various factions.
3) He won't publicize that because he supports it.
4) שלום עלי נפשי

and you know this cause you probably spoke to him and that's what he told you....

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #304 on: November 19, 2015, 11:54:48 PM »
and you know this cause you probably spoke to him and that's what he told you....

No, he's quoted saying basically this.
Add that to the secret letter that was hidden for many months and the picture is vivid.

I don't even need to use Occam's Razor.

Offline cs50

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #305 on: November 19, 2015, 11:57:59 PM »

No, he's quoted saying basically this.
Add that to the secret letter that was hidden for many months and the picture is vivid.

I don't even need to use Occam's Razor.

Well I guess it's good that he has his own personal secretary to let us know exactly what he holds in this story.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #306 on: November 20, 2015, 12:01:19 AM »
Well I guess it's good that he has his own personal secretary to let us know exactly what he holds in this story.

I'll stop at this because I don't want to go in circles, but he's quoted as being asked and what he answered. No secretary needed.

Offline Iz

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #307 on: November 20, 2015, 12:06:08 AM »
It's pretty clear now actually.

1) He supports it.
2) He can send a secret letter that he didn't technically permit it to stave off some serious fire from all leading American Rabbonim from various factions.
3) He won't publicize that because he supports it.
4) שלום עלי נפשי
See, now that's what I call "clear". Moshe123's position is clear.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #308 on: November 20, 2015, 12:07:29 AM »
Or, he doesn't support it but he has respect for R' Nota so he hasn't come out and said anything.
But saying that he has a hidden agenda to be matir without saying he was matir is probably a more reasonable assumption. What was that razor you were quoting?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #309 on: November 20, 2015, 12:27:06 AM »
Supporting a heter, but unwilling to face the fire isn't a hidden agenda.

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #310 on: November 20, 2015, 12:58:09 AM »
It's pretty clear now actually.

1) He supports it.
2) He can send a secret letter that he didn't technically permit it to stave off some serious fire from all leading American Rabbonim from various factions.
3) He won't publicize that because he supports it.
4) שלום עלי נפשי
Did we read the same letter from התאחדות ?!
They say they asked him and he said  it wasn't his היתר it came from someone else who is a בר סמכא.  That is the end of the qoute.
They then are upset that he is not upset and jumping on the bandwagon.  If it's not his היתר (and did he have anything to do with it?) what do they want from him?

I will admit that what is the strangest is that it appears that Rov Nota is saying he relied on Rav shmuel and Rav shmuel is denying involvement.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #311 on: November 20, 2015, 07:07:47 AM »


Did we read the same letter from התאחדות ?!
They say they asked him and he said  it wasn't his היתר it came from someone else who is a בר סמכא.  That is the end of the qoute.
They then are upset that he is not upset and jumping on the bandwagon.  If it's not his היתר (and did he have anything to do with it?) what do they want from him?

I will admit that what is the strangest is that it appears that Rov Nota is saying he relied on Rav shmuel and Rav shmuel is denying involvement.

+1
Good summary.

The letter does not imply that R Shmuel actually holds she is muteres lashuk.
Just that there is a legitimate shita that holds so.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #312 on: November 20, 2015, 07:13:35 AM »
Explains both the letter denying it and the reason he didn't publicize it. I can't say you gain respect from speaking out of both sides of his mouth on this issue.

If you think it's ok, have guts, admit it and explain your halachik reasoning and face the fire. Perhaps many Rabbonim will agree.

I don't have much respect for the authors of this letter. I'm only referring to the point they quote him on which makes a lot of sense.

Ok, I'm going to be excoriated.
Since R Shmuel doesn't think the hetter is totally illegitimate, there is no reason why he should get further involved either way.

Not sure what you want.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #313 on: November 20, 2015, 09:12:20 AM »
Since R Shmuel doesn't think the hetter is totally illegitimate, there is no reason why he should get further involved either way.

Not sure what you want.

Exactly (we agree on something?)
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #314 on: November 20, 2015, 10:25:57 AM »
Since R Shmuel doesn't think the hetter is totally illegitimate, there is no reason why he should get further involved either way.

Not sure what you want.

Or at least that he feels that R Nota is enough of a bar samcha that he will not say anything (which is exactly what he is quoted as saying)
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #315 on: November 20, 2015, 10:42:58 AM »
Or at least that he feels that R Nota is enough of a bar samcha that he will not say anything (which is exactly what he is quoted as saying)
In other words the heter is not illegitimate.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #316 on: November 20, 2015, 10:43:29 AM »
Exactly (we agree on something?)
It would appear so!
You should try this more often  :P

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #317 on: November 20, 2015, 10:48:59 AM »
In other words the heter is not illegitimate.
The reason I changed from that is its implication that he gave an opinion on the actual heter that it is not "illegitimate" even if he may not have issued such a heter on his own while what I wrote implies that he gave no opinion at all on the heter but said that the Rov issuing it is one who may be relied upon.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #318 on: November 20, 2015, 11:22:07 AM »
I will admit that what is the strangest is that it appears that Rov Nota is saying he relied on Rav shmuel and Rav shmuel is denying involvement.
One thing is for sure RSK was very involved in the whole story for years
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #319 on: November 20, 2015, 11:22:20 AM »


The reason I changed from that is its implication that he gave an opinion on the actual heter that it is not "illegitimate" even if he may not have issued such a heter on his own while what I wrote implies that he gave no opinion at all on the heter but said that the Rov issuing it is one who may be relied upon.

If he felt that the heter was illegitimate (like everyone else does), he would not say that the Rov issuing thr illegitimate heter is a bar samcha.