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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 280535 times)

Online aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #320 on: November 20, 2015, 12:29:58 PM »

If he felt that the heter was illegitimate (like everyone else does), he would not say that the Rov issuing thr illegitimate heter is a bar samcha.
Correct, but there is a very big difference between him saying "it is not illegitimate" and his not saying a specific opinion one way or the other. It is possible that due to a personal relationship to those involved he does not want to say an opinion one way or the other which would be a very understandable and seemingly appropriate position to take.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #321 on: November 20, 2015, 02:18:27 PM »
Before every comment added to this thread I suggest learning a Mishna in Avos

הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

Added to Wiki

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #322 on: November 22, 2015, 06:08:25 PM »
R Shmuel Kaminetsky issued a vague letter that he did not sign the annulment because he can't deny involvement because his son R Shalom Kaminetsky was the one that shopped around the annulment saying that his father approved of it. As seen from this letter from R Moshe Sternbuch (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/rav-moshe-sternbuch-explains-by-tamar.html) where he writes "Last week we protested the heter that was given from one of the American poskim to permit a married woman to marry without obtaining a Get from her first husband. One of the greatest rosh yeshivos  in America voiced his opinion that it was possible to rely on the rabbi who gave the heter to remarry. (I have clear evidence in my possession for this). This a a terrible stumbling block and breach in normative halacha." The clear evidence is the letter that was sent to R Sternbuch as well as to other poskim asking them to sign onto the Heter which no one did R' Notta who has said that he didn't investigate the case because he relied on a Gadol (Kaminetsky). 

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #323 on: November 23, 2015, 11:32:17 AM »
R' Notta who has said that he didn't investigate the case because he relied on a Gadol (Kaminetsky). 
I find that very hard to believe
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #324 on: November 23, 2015, 03:09:34 PM »
R Shmuel Kaminetsky issued a vague letter that he did not sign the annulment because he can't deny involvement because his son R Shalom Kaminetsky was the one that shopped around the annulment saying that his father approved of it. As seen from this letter from R Moshe Sternbuch (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/rav-moshe-sternbuch-explains-by-tamar.html) where he writes "Last week we protested the heter that was given from one of the American poskim to permit a married woman to marry without obtaining a Get from her first husband. One of the greatest rosh yeshivos  in America voiced his opinion that it was possible to rely on the rabbi who gave the heter to remarry. (I have clear evidence in my possession for this). This a a terrible stumbling block and breach in normative halacha." The clear evidence is the letter that was sent to R Sternbuch as well as to other poskim asking them to sign onto the Heter which no one did R' Notta who has said that he didn't investigate the case because he relied on a Gadol (Kaminetsky). 
I would recommend that people read the hebrew and not just the translation
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #325 on: November 23, 2015, 05:04:25 PM »
I find that very hard to believe
I find all if this hard to believe - but it happened

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #326 on: November 27, 2015, 09:26:30 AM »
This is almost over...
Turns out that there was never any heter anyway.


Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #327 on: November 27, 2015, 09:40:46 AM »
Voss maint doss?
He wasnt מסדר קידושין for her?

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #328 on: November 27, 2015, 09:41:32 AM »
This is almost over...
Turns out that there was never any heter anyway.

So what happens to her now?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #329 on: November 27, 2015, 09:49:52 AM »
Voss maint doss?
He wasnt מסדר קידושין for her?
He definitely was mesader kidushin


This is a fiasco of massive proportions.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 09:54:12 AM by churnbabychurn »

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #330 on: November 27, 2015, 09:52:54 AM »
This is almost over...
Turns out that there was never any heter anyway.



Where was he um until now?
I think I know the answer. Fess up and say I screwed up!!

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #331 on: November 27, 2015, 09:59:43 AM »
So what happens to her now?
תצא מזה ומזה והולד ממזר

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #332 on: November 27, 2015, 10:06:16 AM »
He definitely was mesader kidushin


This is a fiasco of massive proportions.

Are you sure? He says he doesn't know her!

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #333 on: November 27, 2015, 11:08:23 AM »
He said what? Ummm I think some ppl in Philly need some explaining to do

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #334 on: November 27, 2015, 11:27:32 AM »
Who was mesader her new kiddushin?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #335 on: November 27, 2015, 11:31:08 AM »
Are you sure? He says he doesn't know her!
He means doesn't know her enough to manufacture any heter. But he agrees that he relied on facts presented by R sholom for a theoretical case.

How he then went and was mesader kidushin is so far unexplained.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #336 on: November 27, 2015, 11:37:44 AM »
He means doesn't know her enough to manufacture any heter. But he agrees that he relied on facts presented by R sholom for a theoretical case.

How he then went and was mesader kidushin is so far unexplained.

Now I'm thoroughly confused.
Did R' Shalom trick R' Nota into doing the kiddushin? He wanted a bigger/second name so he didn't do it himself and had R' Nota do it?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #337 on: November 27, 2015, 12:01:57 PM »
Now I'm thoroughly confused.
Did R' Shalom trick R' Nota into doing the kiddushin? He wanted a bigger/second name so he didn't do it himself and had R' Nota do it?
It's possible that R Shalom tricked R Notta twice. Once by falsely presenting the case as one where the husband had a mental sickness which is only based on a report written by a psychologist who never met the husband and used R Notta's name as the Matir. The second time might have been when the couple went to R Notta to be masder (with R Notta not knowing that this was the woman in R Shalom's theoretical case) and R Notta asked the couple who is your Rabbi and she said R Shalom and R Shalom than vouched to R Notta that she is in fact ok to be married.   


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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #338 on: November 27, 2015, 12:06:04 PM »

It's possible that R Shalom tricked R Notta twice. Once by falsely presenting the case as one where the husband had a mental sickness which is only based on a report written by a psychologist who never met the husband and used R Notta's name as the Matir. The second time might have been when the couple went to R Notta to be masder (with R Notta not knowing that this was the woman in R Shalom's theoretical case) and R Notta asked the couple who is your Rabbi and she said R Shalom and R Shalom than vouched to R Notta that she is in fact ok to be married.
Do you understand that you are talking about very big rabbis here? Not second graders playing a trick on their teacher....so if you keep on talking about your conspiracy theories I would love to know yours on the JFK assassination as well.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #339 on: November 27, 2015, 12:12:44 PM »
Do you understand that you are talking about very big rabbis here? Not second graders playing a trick on their teacher....so if you keep on talking about your conspiracy theories I would love to know yours on the JFK assassination as well.
How do you rationally explain any of this?


Bottom line R Shmuel Kamenetzke and R Nota have clearly written that they were not matir this woman.

Who is responsible for the fact that she is illegitimately living with another man?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:18:24 PM by churnbabychurn »