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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 154361 times)

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2015, 09:40:42 AM »
You are correct that the one who actually gave the heter is not her neighbor but all the weight of the psak comes from her neighbor
you ignore my question, so ill ask again
how do you explain this statement of yours
Who also happens to be her neighbor
to me, it seems you are saying that rav shmuel doesnt agree with his own psak, but bent the rules because he knows her
is that what you are saying?

Online avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2015, 09:42:43 AM »
you ignore my question, so ill ask again
how do you explain this statement of yoursto me, it seems you are saying that rav shmuel doesnt agree with his own psak, but bent the rules because he knows her
is that what you are saying?
I never said that I think you are mixing me up with a previous comment which said that he was going to put out a letter against, I'll believe that when I see it
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2015, 09:43:21 AM »
Where did you see this?
I've been following this story for a few years already.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2015, 09:44:21 AM »
I never said that I think you are mixing me up with a previous comment which said that he was going to put out a letter against, I'll believe that when I see it
you are once again not explaining what you meant
im not mixing up your comments. i said she didnt get a heter from a random rav, but rather a leading gadol. so i was wrong about which gadol, but my comment still stands.
you then said that he happens to be her neighbor, implying that he had other motivations to give her the heter, not strictly halachic motivations.
so please explain what you meant

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2015, 09:45:42 AM »
you are once again not explaining what you meant
im not mixing up your comments. i said she didnt get a heter from a random rav, but rather a leading gadol. so i was wrong about which gadol, but my comment still stands.
you then said that he happens to be her neighbor, implying that he had other motivations to give her the heter, not strictly halachic motivations.
so please explain what you meant
The weight of the psak comes from her neighbor I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2015, 09:46:29 AM »
I have some more.

Can't eat meat? Get it shechted
Can't have relations with a random woman (or vise versa)? get married
Cant have relations with your spouse? she should go to the mikva
Can't eat the fruit in E"Y? take off trumos and maasros
Can't cut your beard? use a scissors


Can't go through the intersection? Wait for a green light
Can't get narcotic pain killers? get a prescription
Can't drive a car? get a license

So many loopholes.
Why respond to such a disgusting, ignorant, hate-filled attack on our holy Torah?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 09:51:27 AM by Baruch »

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2015, 09:47:50 AM »
The weight of the psak comes from her neighbor I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is
i give up

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2015, 09:50:25 AM »
If RSK is her neighbor, than what's RAF's tayna about the psychologist not interviewing the man?
RSK could be basing it on his own interactions with the husband, and just using the psychologist as extra ammo.

Being a neighbor, actually helps her in this case!

Are you guys sure that she's their neighbor?

That changes the whole conversation!

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2015, 09:54:37 AM »
Why respond to such a disgusting, ignorant, hate-filled attack on our holy Torah?
leitzanusa d'avoda zara.

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2015, 09:56:40 AM »
Why respond to such a disgusting, ignorant, hate-filled attack on our holy Torah?

Chas Vishalom!  And if you took it as an attack on the holy torah, I can understand why you'd be upset, my apologies.  It was intended to point out where there is a priority amongst the chachomim to solve a problem, there is often a way to be found.  As pointed out in a previous thread, some males in the torah community believe that the torah views women as inferior to men and simply exist to serve men's spirituality.  I believe my list reflects the lack of priority in solving the get problem, perhaps because of that devaluation of women.     

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2015, 09:59:05 AM »
Chas Vishalom!  And if you took it as an attack on the holy torah, I can understand why you'd be upset, my apologies.  It was intended to point out where there is a priority amongst the chachomim to solve a problem, there is often a way to be found.  As pointed out in a previous thread, some males in the torah community believe that the torah views women as inferior to men and simply exist to serve men's spirituality.  I believe my list reflects the lack of priority in solving the get problem, perhaps because of that devaluation of women.     

Agunos are a problem from time immemorial. There was never a solution because there is no solution. Torah doesn't change.

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2015, 10:00:39 AM »
Agunos are a problem from time immemorial. There was never a solution because there is no solution. Torah doesn't change.
and the reason is certainly not bc of a devaluation of women

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2015, 10:08:38 AM »
Agunos are a problem from time immemorial. There was never a solution because there is no solution. Torah doesn't change.

Of course our observance of halacha has evolved over time.  And of course chazal found ways to make things stricter in response to threats and to loosen the reigns or find accommodations when faced with priorities.  The cherem of rabainu gershom and the heterim in response to it are a great example.   

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2015, 10:11:35 AM »
Of course our observance of halacha has evolved over time.  And of course chazal found ways to make things stricter in response to threats and to loosen the reigns or find accommodations when faced with priorities.  The cherem of rabainu gershom and the heterim in response to it are a great example.   

But that isn't a basic tenet of the Torah. Besides that some Sephardim never accepted the cherem.

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2015, 10:12:33 AM »
Chas Vishalom!  And if you took it as an attack on the holy torah, I can understand why you'd be upset, my apologies.  It was intended to point out where there is a priority amongst the chachomim to solve a problem, there is often a way to be found.  As pointed out in a previous thread, some males in the torah community believe that the torah views women as inferior to men and simply exist to serve men's spirituality.  I believe my list reflects the lack of priority in solving the get problem, perhaps because of that devaluation of women.     
If you would open any Sefer Sha'alos Utshuvos sefer, and read the legal hair splitting that the Chachomim over the ages attempted in order to save agunos, you'd know that the problem with a husband refusing a get is that there simply is nothing that can be done.

If you think the Chachamim devalue women and that's why no legal loophole was found yet, then let me revise my comment:
"Why respond to such a disgusting, ignorant, hate-filled attack on our holy Chachamim?"