The Tamar Epstein Saga

[churnbabychurn]

Rav Nota is Rav Ephraim's uncle.
He is known in all circles as America's #1 expert in Even Ha'Ezer.
He's a Rav for 50+ years

I thought R Ephraim was the Rov of Memphis for years. Wtvr.

Ok, il take your word for it. He is the foremost "even haezer expert" (what ever this means)

 vaytur.

[Baruch]

I thought R Ephraim was the Rov of Memphis for years. Wtvr.

Ok, il take your word for it. He is the foremost "even haezer expert" (what ever this means)

 vaytur.

From what I've heard, Rav Nota is the Rav of Memphis. Rav Ephraim was actually a mechanech (I think a Cheder Rebbe).

Even Ha'ezer meaning Gittin/Kiddushin

[SayWhat]

This is what R Nota Greenblatt wrote a few weeks ago

To whom it may concern:
I certify here what I said in writing to several talmidei chachamim who asked, and that is that I do not know Mr. Aharon Freidman, may he live and be well, or Ms. (?) Tamar Epstein, may she live and be well, and it is certainly not possible for me to know anything about their marriage or any details between them. Rather, Hagaon R' Sholom Kamenetzky shlita asked me: When there is testimony by expert doctors that someone is mentally ill in a way that disrupts his marriage, if it is possible to nullify the kiddushin due to this. And I said that if the matter is clear and is similar to the incident in the responsum in the Igros Moshe, it is possible to permit it under certain circumstances.
Nota tzvi Greenblatt

You can see the original posted here http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epstein-heter-r-greenblatt-said.html

[ckmk47]

This is what R Nota Greenblatt wrote a few weeks ago

To whom it may concern:
I certify here what I said in writing to several talmidei chachamim who asked, and that is that I do not know Mr. Aharon Freidman, may he live and be well, or Ms. (?) Tamar Epstein, may she live and be well, and it is certainly not possible for me to know anything about their marriage or any details between them. Rather, Hagaon R' Sholom Kamenetzky shlita asked me: When there is testimony by expert doctors that someone is mentally ill in a way that disrupts his marriage, if it is possible to nullify the kiddushin due to this. And I said that if the matter is clear and is similar to the incident in the responsum in the Igros Moshe, it is possible to permit it under certain circumstances.
Nota tzvi Greenblatt

You can see the original posted here http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epstein-heter-r-greenblatt-said.html

WOW!
He's respectful of Hagaon R' Sholom Kamenetzky shlita, but places the whole thing back into his lap.  R Nota is saying he never ruled on this case.  He only gave the general halacha to R Sholom.

[churnbabychurn]

WOW!
He's respectful of Hagaon R' Sholom Kamenetzky shlita, but places the whole thing back into his lap.  R Nota is saying he never ruled on this case.  He only gave the general halacha to R Sholom.

Yet he won't unmarry the couple.

Maybe because he believes this is not his heter and therefore not his responsibility to clean it up....

[ckmk47]

General question.
Does a mesader kidushin have an obligation to check that a couple he's marrying are Jewish and kosher to marry each other?
I'm pretty sure it's standard practice for Chabad shluchim.  But they're dealing with  people who may not be Jewish altogether.

[churnbabychurn]

General question.
Does a mesader kidushin have an obligation to check that a couple he's marrying are Jewish and kosher to marry each other?
I'm pretty sure it's standard practice for Chabad shluchim.  But they're dealing with  people who may not be Jewish altogether.

Even if not an obligation it's a responsibility.

[Baruch]

If big rabbanim tell a woman that she's mutar leshuk, she gets married, and then those rabbanim say they made a mistake, is she asur labo'el?
If not, why does the letter signed by the Chasiddeshe Rabbanim say she's asur labo'el? She's following the advice of great rabbanim?

[SayWhat]

If big rabbanim tell a woman that she's mutar leshuk, she gets married, and then those rabbanim say they made a mistake, is she asur labo'el?
If not, why does the letter signed by the Chasiddeshe Rabbanim say she's asur labo'el? She's following the advice of great rabbanim?

The whole Heter is based on her first husband being mentally ill which has pretty much been shown to be a lie. So if she knew that the Heter was based on a lie than she can't claim she's just relying on the great rabonim

[avromie7]

If big rabbanim tell a woman that she's mutar leshuk, she gets married, and then those rabbanim say they made a mistake, is she asur labo'el?
If not, why does the letter signed by the Chasiddeshe Rabbanim say she's asur labo'el? She's following the advice of great rabbanim?

Absolutely assur why would you think otherwise

[good sam]

Absolutely assur why would you think otherwise

If it's shogeg she's not asur.

[Baruch]

Absolutely assur why would you think otherwise

I remember hearing that it may be an ones, and an ones wouldn't be asur labo'el.
Are you sure?

[churnbabychurn]

If big rabbanim tell a woman that she's mutar leshuk, she gets married, and then those rabbanim say they made a mistake, is she asur labo'el?
If not, why does the letter signed by the Chasiddeshe Rabbanim say she's asur labo'el? She's following the advice of great rabbanim?

Good argument maybe for day one. But what is her heter to stay now?? The fact that she is there today is sufficient to assur her.

Both R Shmuel and R Nota have distanced themselves from a heter. So which "big rabbonim" allow her to be with him as of now?

They say she is chayav chenek BTW. Not just ossur laboel..

[avromie7]

I remember hearing that it may be an ones, and an ones wouldn't be asur labo'el.
Are you sure?

I stand corrected. I don't think anyone can honestly say there were no games played by her.

[aygart]

The whole Heter is based on her first husband being mentally ill which has pretty much been shown to be a lie. So if she knew that the Heter was based on a lie than she can't claim she's just relying on the great rabonim

That has not yet been shown in this forum at least.

[Ergel]

I'm confused. What are people waiting for from Rav Nota. He was never matir. He said he doesn't know the guy so he can't have a meaningful opinion whether she's muteres or not. What else is he supposed to say?

[churnbabychurn]

I'm confused. What are people waiting for from Rav Nota. He was never matir. He said he doesn't know the guy so he can't have a meaningful opinion whether she's muteres or not. What else is he supposed to say?

He was mesader kidushin. They are telling him to separate the couple asap.

He has now been well informed that the marriage that he arranged is illegitimate.

[SayWhat]

That has not yet been shown in this forum at least.

Aygart -
The husband in Rebbe Moshes tesuva where Rebbe Moshe annulled the marriage  (which this case is supposedly based off of) was in a mental institution, walked around without clothes on and had tried to kill himself. Even if he gave a get it probably wouldn't have been good because of his mental illness.

The current husband, Aharon Friedman for the past bunch of years  (not sure exactly but I think more than 5) has worked as the tax counsel for the House Ways and Means committee. In other words his boss until last month was Congressman Paul Ryan who is now the speaker of the house. His job entails dealing with other high ranking members of Congress, lobbyists and CEO's of fortune 100 companies. Do you think that someone who has had this job for year's is mentally ill like the husband in Rav Moshes tesuva?

If you read the letter from the Baltimore Bais Din it clearly states that when asked why she wants a divorce Tamar said that her husband wasn't social enough for her. Don't you think that if her husband was suffering from an incurable mental illness she might have mentioned that to the Bais Din as to way she wanted a Get?

The expert psychologist who said that the husband is mentally ill never met or examined the husband and only based the report off of what Tamar said about him.

Aygart - i have made 3 points to explain why i think that the husband is not mentally ill - your thoughts.

[Moshe123]

He was mesader kidushin. They are telling him to separate the couple asap.

He has now been well informed that the marriage that he arranged is illegitimate.

Exactly.
NG is playing golem.
A few guys are questioning why I removed the R? Because he freaking married an eishes ish with either having no clue, or blatant violation of halacha, whichever is worse!

[AJK]

Exactly.
NG is playing golem.
A few guys are questioning why I removed the R? Because he freaking married an eishes ish with either having no clue, or blatant violation of halacha, whichever is worse!

Wow. You no longer get the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for clarifying that you were *intentionally* being mevazeh a talmid chuchem b'rabim.

May God have mercy on your soul. I hope He gives you the benefit of the doubt.