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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 271672 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #740 on: December 08, 2015, 11:00:01 AM »
How many times do you want to repeat the same things which were already discussed and answered?
You just dismissed it as "not what he meant" and "out of context." Not a serious answer.

Online aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #741 on: December 08, 2015, 11:08:46 AM »
You just dismissed it as "not what he meant" and "out of context." Not a serious answer.
You may not consider it serious but it is definitely his intent.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #742 on: December 08, 2015, 11:14:19 AM »
You may not consider it serious but it is definitely his intent.

If the very phrase used is one that would validate the heter (by equating it to R moshe's case), you cannot simply dismiss it as unintentional and out of context.

You are being intellectually dishonest. The phrase "totally insane" is the very crux of the issue at hand and cannot be casually inserted to the letter out of context as you claim.

This phrase needs to be bolded, highlighted, analysed, corroborated and verified. Not dismissed.

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #743 on: December 08, 2015, 11:15:50 AM »
We go round and round in circles...
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #744 on: December 08, 2015, 11:16:52 AM »
We go round and round in circles...
luvin it  :) i can do this all day.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #745 on: December 08, 2015, 11:17:42 AM »
So your the guy who throws rocks at gedolim in israel. Nice.

Chas veshalom. I'm very very moderate.
There just is no machlokes here between gedolim. There is the halacha as mentioned in letters by all leading rabbanim and gedolim coming out every day and then there is another side who doesn't even explain their/his heter.
Eishes Ish is not some joke.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #746 on: December 08, 2015, 11:18:09 AM »
You are being intellectually dishonest.
That is what I wrote about you regarding this. To use a borrowed term, klal uprat iy ata dan ela kieyn haprat. Within a few lines he clearly explained exactly what he meant by that.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yesitsme83

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #747 on: December 08, 2015, 11:51:34 AM »
@AJK and the other wise men of Chelm

Your hypocrisy on this thread is sickening. Moshe123 referred to a modern day Rabbi in a derogatory fashion (which he shouldn't have done) and you went crazy. But when people openly espouse disdain for chazal, referring to them as "misogynistic" and "outdated", when people openly profess their HERETICAL views (yes some of them are EXACTLY that), and when people discuss how Poskim "bend Halacha" as they see fit, you don't have a blasted word to say.
Why's that? Cat got your tongues?

I'd say it's common sense that those who disparage Torah Shebaal Peh on the whole and those who mock Chazal and Rishonim ought to be yelled at a lot more than a guy who came to a conclusion about a modern day Rav which, although wrong, is easy to understand how he got there.
But then again, nobody ever correlated DDF post count with common sense, did they?

As for Moshe123, I would have come to the same conclusion as you (the opinions of the sages of DDF notwithstanding). However, the facts are that although Rav Nota is a chashuve Rav and the real deal, he's also over 90 years old. Things that you'd catch onto right away can sometimes slip by someone of that age. Obviously, as anybody with knowledge of the facts and minimal intelligence would conclude, he was misled by members of the Kamenetsky family. He has already retracted his position a long time ago (in that letter) and so had taken responsibility for what he's done.

You have to go easy on someone his age. It was a mistake on his part and those that know him are furious as to how he was duped into being used as a "human shield" for this act.

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #748 on: December 08, 2015, 11:59:51 AM »
Well, it keeps me from reading the "daas torah" blog.
Smart move.
He is getting worse!

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #749 on: December 08, 2015, 12:22:49 PM »
Ooooh, because I compared it to a sport I must be wrong.  Find me an earlier published case of kidushei ta'us based on a mental defect.
I don't care about the comparison to the NFL.
Rav Moshe would vomit at your position that Halacha evolves.

If you would be in tune with Rav Moshe's writings, you would know this too.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #750 on: December 08, 2015, 12:31:56 PM »
I don't care about the comparison to the NFL.
Rav Moshe would vomit at your position that Halacha evolves.

If you would be in tune with Rav Moshe's writings, you would know this too.

Keep avoiding the question.  I never said halacha evolves.  We come up with new applications of halacha to deal with new situations.  I don't think anyone would deny that. 

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #751 on: December 08, 2015, 12:33:15 PM »
Keep avoiding the question.  I never said halacha evolves.  We come up with new applications of halacha to deal with new situations.  I don't think anyone would deny that. 

But completely irrelevant to that case. person being insane is not a chiddush of Reb Moshe or his time.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #752 on: December 08, 2015, 12:35:13 PM »
But completely irrelevant to that case. person being insane is not a chiddush of Reb Moshe or his time.
So find me an earlier source.

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #753 on: December 08, 2015, 12:41:49 PM »
Keep avoiding the question.  I never said halacha evolves.  We come up with new applications of halacha to deal with new situations.  I don't think anyone would deny that.
If that was your intention - I take back everything I said.
I understood you to mean - that the Halacha is bent to conform to modern times and realities.

(I still have a strong suspicion that that's what you meant)

Offline Boruch999

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #754 on: December 08, 2015, 01:25:33 PM »
Keep avoiding the question.  I never said halacha evolves.  We come up with new applications of halacha to deal with new situations.  I don't think anyone would deny that.

Moving the goal posts is a terrible analogy for this.  In defense of Baruch's misunderstanding.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #755 on: December 08, 2015, 01:28:10 PM »
Moving the goal posts is a terrible analogy for this.  In defense of Baruch's misunderstanding.
There is no misunderstanding.

This fiasco has created the horrible perception that anything goes in halacha. Many OO/MO people are rubbing their hands in glee...

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #756 on: December 08, 2015, 02:30:30 PM »
If that was your intention - I take back everything I said.
I understood you to mean - that the Halacha is bent to conform to modern times and realities.

(I still have a strong suspicion that that's what you meant)

That's fine, but I never meant Halacha changes, even if I said that (which I don't believe I did).  Again, I truly believe that we make things work, within the framework of existing halachic authority, when we care to. 

Moving the goal posts is a terrible analogy for this.  In defense of Baruch's misunderstanding.

Maybe, but I don't think so.  Until R' Moshe, I'm not aware of anyone using the svara of kidushei taus for a mental defect.  Thus, using that existing aspect of halacha to apply to invalidating a kiddushin is moving the proverbial goal posts, as I see it.  To lighten the standard of requisite mental defect even further is just a further movement of the same.  Again, just my $.02 (which are worth less than that).

There is no misunderstanding.

This fiasco has created the horrible perception that anything goes in halacha. Many OO/MO people are rubbing their hands in glee...

Yeah, yeah.  We all already know of your feelings towards anyone with different standards than yourself. 

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #757 on: December 08, 2015, 02:50:20 PM »
That's fine, but I never meant Halacha changes, even if I said that (which I don't believe I did).  Again, I truly believe that we make things work, within the framework of existing halachic authority, when we care to. 

Maybe, but I don't think so.  Until R' Moshe, I'm not aware of anyone using the svara of kidushei taus for a mental defect.  Thus, using that existing aspect of halacha to apply to invalidating a kiddushin is moving the proverbial goal posts, as I see it.  To lighten the standard of requisite mental defect even further is just a further movement of the same.  Again, just my $.02 (which are worth less than that).

Yeah, yeah.  We all already know of your feelings towards anyone with different standards than yourself.
You're all over the place.
I truly have no clue what you mean.
Your sentences are full of double speak.
First parts of paragraphs saying you don't hold something, and the second half says that you do hold that.

I hope your views on Halcahic evolution are in line with Rav Moshe's, but I highly doubt it.

אני מאמין באמונה שלמה שזאת התורה לא תהא מוחלפת ולא תהא תורה אחרת מאת הבורא יתברך שמו

Offline Boruch999

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #758 on: December 08, 2015, 02:52:36 PM »

Maybe, but I don't think so.  Until R' Moshe, I'm not aware of anyone using the svara of kidushei taus for a mental defect.  Thus, using that existing aspect of halacha to apply to invalidating a kiddushin is moving the proverbial goal posts, as I see it.  To lighten the standard of requisite mental defect even further is just a further movement of the same.  Again, just my $.02 (which are worth less than that).

 

We clearly have different ideas about what "moving the goal posts" implies.  But that is not the topic of discussion, so we can leave it at that.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #759 on: December 08, 2015, 03:00:46 PM »




Yeah, yeah.  We all already know of your feelings towards anyone with different standards than yourself.
My feelings are towards those that despise halacha and mesorah and wish it all wasn't so "rigid and inconsiderate"