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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 154368 times)

Online Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2015, 10:14:09 AM »
Of course our observance of halacha has evolved over time.  And of course chazal found ways to make things stricter in response to threats and to loosen the reigns or find accommodations when faced with priorities.  The cherem of rabainu gershom and the heterim in response to it are a great example.
IIRC The cherem came with the heter, CMIIW.

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2015, 10:25:45 AM »
I don't know about Lakewood but in the rest of the U.S. it is not an exaggeration to say that Rav shmuel is THE Manhig.  He deals with שאלות חמורות every day.  I would not be surprised if poskim followed him and were not concerned about these letters.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2015, 10:28:03 AM »
I don't know about Lakewood but in the rest of the U.S. it is not an exaggeration to say that Rav shmuel is THE Manhig.  He deals with שאלות חמורות every day.  I would not be surprised if poskim followed him and were not concerned about these letters.
I don't know where you got this idea from, are you by any chance a talmid?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2015, 10:31:54 AM »
Agunos are a problem from time immemorial. There was never a solution because there is no solution. Torah doesn't change.
Agunos is actually an extremely exaggerated issue, in almost all cases there is a very valid reason for the husband to withhold a get the most common scenario is when the woman uses the american legal system to gain custody and/or money that halachikly is not hers and the husband is using his halachik power to get whats rightfully his
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2015, 10:33:42 AM »
Agunos is actually an extremely exaggerated issue, in almost all cases there is a very valid reason for the husband to withhold a get the most common scenario is when the woman uses the american legal system to gain custody and/or money that halachikly is not hers and the husband is using his halachik power to get whats rightfully his

Source?  If you're going to make such a claim you better be ready to back it up with firsthand knowledge of MANY agunah situations.

Online Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2015, 10:44:13 AM »
Source?  If you're going to make such a claim you better be ready to back it up with firsthand knowledge of MANY agunah situations.
+1, how can you generalize?
I'm sure there are many times that the wife is wrong.
But did you take a survey?
Do you have intimate knowledge of 100s of divorces?

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2015, 10:46:21 AM »
I don't know about Lakewood but in the rest of the U.S. it is not an exaggeration to say that Rav shmuel is THE Manhig.  He deals with שאלות חמורות every day.  I would not be surprised if poskim followed him and were not concerned about these letters.
WHen there are poskim like R Shlomo Miller arguing with him then it becomes less clear.

Offline Sport

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2015, 10:47:00 AM »
Chas Vishalom!  And if you took it as an attack on the holy torah, I can understand why you'd be upset, my apologies.  It was intended to point out where there is a priority amongst the chachomim to solve a problem, there is often a way to be found.  As pointed out in a previous thread, some males in the torah community believe that the torah views women as inferior to men and simply exist to serve men's spirituality.  I believe my list reflects the lack of priority in solving the get problem, perhaps because of that devaluation of women.     
There actually are situations where they did come up with a "loophole" to avoid agunus issues, as well as yibum, of course it had to be in the context of halacha. Iirc men going out to war  used to give a get al m'nas-  machshuv to their wives in case they didnt return home.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2015, 10:48:59 AM »
Agunos is actually an extremely exaggerated issue, in almost all cases there is a very valid reason for the husband to withhold a get the most common scenario is when the woman uses the american legal system to gain custody and/or money that halachikly is not hers and the husband is using his halachik power to get whats rightfully his
Source?  If you're going to make such a claim you better be ready to back it up with firsthand knowledge of MANY agunah situations.
+1, how can you generalize?
I'm sure there are many times that the wife is wrong.
But did you take a survey?
Do you have intimate knowledge of 100s of divorces?

See the thread about the ones who were arrested for forced gittin. Can someone post the linkl?

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2015, 10:51:11 AM »
See the thread about the ones who were arrested for forced gittin. Can someone post the linkl?

And you're inferring from that that it's an "exaggerated issue" and the "most common scenario" is where a woman deserves it??  Talk about victim blaming..

Offline aygart

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2015, 10:58:47 AM »
Chas Vishalom!  And if you took it as an attack on the holy torah, I can understand why you'd be upset, my apologies.  It was intended to point out where there is a priority amongst the chachomim to solve a problem, there is often a way to be found.  As pointed out in a previous thread, some males in the torah community believe that the torah views women as inferior to men and simply exist to serve men's spirituality.  I believe my list reflects the lack of priority in solving the get problem, perhaps because of that devaluation of women.     
I did not think it to be an attack on the Torah but a misguided statement by those who do not really respect Halacha. The attitude expressed is that "where there is a rabbinic will there is a halachic way". This attitude is simply mistaken and malicious. The attitude behind it is one of disrespect for halacha and assumes that there is nothing which we cannot get around with sufficient will. Most of the items mentioned are not loopholes at all. In addition, as Baruch mentioned, the literature of attempts to be matir agunos is from the  most voluminous of all sections of halacha.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2015, 11:00:35 AM »
And you're inferring from that that it's an "exaggerated issue" and the "most common scenario" is where a woman deserves it??  Talk about victim blaming..
I am not, but this exact question was discussed over there. I would immagine that in most of these cases there is enough blame to go around and neither one needs to hog all of it.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2015, 11:04:41 AM »


this is very sad
she has been through a lot, and was finally granted a heter, and not from some random rabbi who has no business giving out heterim in these weighty matters.
and now other big rabbanim are objecting which will cause her trouble for the rest of her life with kids and grandkids

They are not causing her trouble
They are saving her kids from being mamzerim and not being able to do shidduchim and being outcasts of the community

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2015, 11:06:14 AM »

They are not causing her trouble
They are saving her kids from being mamzerim and not being able to do shidduchim and being outcasts of the community
arent you a tzadik

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2015, 11:16:18 AM »
I don't know where you got this idea from, are you by any chance a talmid?
No not at all but I do live out of town and I see how kollelim and Mosdos chinuch come him for everything.