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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 287549 times)

Offline a mirrer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2015, 07:25:23 AM »
It seems that none of the rabbanim have an inherent problem with the svara of mekach taos.

How does that work? What did she "buy" that she can claim mekach taos?
a husband (in halacha marriage is a transaction)

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2015, 07:31:18 AM »
I know that RCA rabbis are pushing their prenuptial agreement very hard. Some aren't marrying couples that don't sign. Has the more chareidi community embraced it as well?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2015, 07:49:03 AM »
I know that RCA rabbis are pushing their prenuptial agreement very hard. Some aren't marrying couples that don't sign. Has the more chareidi community embraced it as well?
Non of our gedoley haposkim approve of the prenup. Until they do there is no such thing as a halachic prenup. It is simply an oxymoron.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2015, 07:50:26 AM »
It seems that none of the rabbanim have an inherent problem with the svara of mekach taos.

How does that work? What did she "buy" that she can claim mekach taos?
A woman marries only willfully.

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2015, 08:08:28 AM »
Non of our gedoley haposkim approve of the prenup. Until they do there is no such thing as a halachic prenup. It is simply an oxymoron.

Interesting. What alternate approach is being pursued to help solve the problem of recalcitrant husbands?

Offline chaimmayer

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2015, 08:15:19 AM »
Rsk and rng are no gorens - not from a talmid Chacham perspective and not from a yeshivish Manhig perspective.  It'll be very interesting to see where this heads but so far they are being very careful to bash the היתר and not the מתיר.

Offline Malachi

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2015, 08:19:42 AM »
Non of our gedoley haposkim approve of the prenup. Until they do there is no such thing as a halachic prenup. It is simply an oxymoron.
why is it an oxy moron ?
Denny Crane

Offline bk73

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2015, 08:33:31 AM »
Reb nota Greenblatt is one of the biggest poskim in inyanei gittin and Reb shmuel kaminetsky is considered the gadol hador (or at least one of them) in america today. Even in the letter from Reb Ahron Feldman he would not bash them in any way. Those that bash them (mainly Eidenshon from dass torah blog )Idiots.

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2015, 08:56:54 AM »
My Hebrew isn't amazing. Can someone tl;dr the two sides?  Am I right that some rabbonim are allowing a woman freed without a get using mekach taus and some are opposing? I can't figure out which rabbi in are allowing it and which are saying its a bad heter.

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2015, 08:57:45 AM »
A friend posted this on Facebook. I thought it was apt.

Thankfully there are loopholes available to solve pressing issues in halacha.
Can't charge interest? Heter Iska.
Can't work the land on Shmita? Heter Mechira.
Can't carry on shabbos? Eiruv Chatzeiros.
Can't walk far on Shabbat? Eruv Tchumin.
Can't enforce a loan after Shmita? Pruzbol.
Can't own chametz on pesach? Mechirat Chametz (with a bonus Bitul),
Can't cook on Yom Tov for Shabbat? Eruv Tavshilin.
Promised to do something? Hatarat Nedarim.
First born that has to fast on erev pesach? Siyum.
Want to eat meat during the 9 days? Siyum.
A woman wont agree to divorce her husband? Heter Meya Rabonim.
A man wont give his wife a get? Sorry, there's nothing we can do. Halacha is Halacha.
Really

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2015, 09:00:13 AM »
this is very sad
she has been through a lot, and was finally granted a heter, and not from some random rabbi who has no business giving out heterim in these weighty matters.
and now other big rabbanim are objecting which will cause her trouble for the rest of her life with kids and grandkids

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2015, 09:01:52 AM »
Rsk and rng are no gorens - not from a talmid Chacham perspective and not from a yeshivish Manhig perspective.  It'll be very interesting to see where this heads but so far they are being very careful to bash the היתר and not the מתיר.
RMS got close..

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2015, 09:05:08 AM »
this is very sad
she has been through a lot, and was finally granted a heter, and not from some random rabbi who has no business giving out heterim in these weighty matters.
and now other big rabbanim are objecting which will cause her trouble for the rest of her life with kids and grandkids

Of course it's sad. But if most poskim say that it has no basis, there is nothing you can do. Halacha will remain halacha. Nobody will marry a person who most poskim call a mamzer. We're referring to a religious person if I understand this correctly. This isn't the Langer story.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2015, 09:05:47 AM »
I wouldn't call these loopholes but, it a pretty accurate statement. Somethings are just impossible. Like eating chometz on pesach. Simply cant be done.

We can discuss what some MO perceive as the "unfairness" of the Torah in the other thread.


Perfectly said.

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2015, 09:06:06 AM »
Of course it's sad. But if most poskim say that it has no basis, there is nothing you can do. Halacha will remain halacha. Nobody will marry a person who most poskim call a mamzer. We're referring to a religious person if I understand this correctly. This isn't the Langer story.
but she didnt get a heter from IBD or something. she got a heter from one of the leading poskim in america

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2015, 09:06:57 AM »
Rsk and rng are no gorens - not from a talmid Chacham perspective and not from a yeshivish Manhig perspective.  It'll be very interesting to see where this heads but so far they are being very careful to bash the היתר and not the מתיר.

We will probably have to wait on a clear letter from RSK on his position. Nobody will just rely on RNG.

Offline good sam

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2015, 09:07:09 AM »
a husband (in halacha marriage is a transaction)
-1 man buys the woman.

A woman marries only willfully.
Does false consent invalidate the transaction?
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2015, 09:08:15 AM »
but she didnt get a heter from IBD or something. she got a heter from one of the leading poskim in america

If RSK agreed, it still doesn't make the story much simpler. If the vast majority of poskim disagree, it's not halacha and no serious rav will use it.

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2015, 09:09:23 AM »
If RSK agreed, it still doesn't make the story much simpler. If the vast majority of poskim disagree, it's not halacha and no serious rav will use it.
i agree, which makes it a sad story.
but my point is, she didnt rely on a bum heter and run with it. so its sad that now no one will honor it

Offline Centro

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2015, 09:10:20 AM »
Is this the guy who sent his kids to public school and then his boys to the belz girls school or that's a different guy?