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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 285109 times)

Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #160 on: November 10, 2015, 11:16:40 AM »
Criiw that's only if there's no blatant halacha against it...
Even if there are, then fine, don't abide by the law, don't let her have the kids/money and risk contempt/jail. How do we extend the right to withold a get in this or any scenario? It is obvious to me that withholding a get is like torturing someone. Are you allowed to torture for money/custody that is halachikly rightfully yours but denied by the legal system?

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #161 on: November 10, 2015, 11:23:41 AM »
Even if there are, then fine, don't abide by the law, don't let her have the kids/money and risk contempt/jail. How do we extend the right to withold a get in this or any scenario? It is obvious to me that withholding a get is like torturing someone. Are you allowed to torture for money/custody that is halachikly rightfully yours but denied by the legal system?

Well said.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #162 on: November 10, 2015, 11:38:56 AM »
Even if there are, then fine, don't abide by the law, don't let her have the kids/money and risk contempt/jail. How do we extend the right to withold a get in this or any scenario? It is obvious to me that withholding a get is like torturing someone. Are you allowed to torture for money/custody that is halachikly rightfully yours but denied by the legal system?

Not even referring to this case.
You can abide by the law in full and still demand what is yours halachically. Yes, you can get back some of it. The law isn't against it.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #163 on: November 10, 2015, 11:44:09 AM »
Even if there are, then fine, don't abide by the law, don't let her have the kids/money and risk contempt/jail. How do we extend the right to withold a get in this or any scenario? It is obvious to me that withholding a get is like torturing someone. Are you allowed to torture for money/custody that is halachikly rightfully yours but denied by the legal system?
You obviously don't know any of the facts in this case.
In jewish law there is no provision for a "no fault Get". Until not that long ago there wasn't even a provision for no fault divorce in the secular courts. Can you believe that even in the secular courts they valued the family at one time?

Online avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #164 on: November 10, 2015, 11:48:37 AM »
Even if there are, then fine, don't abide by the law, don't let her have the kids/money and risk contempt/jail. How do we extend the right to withold a get in this or any scenario? It is obvious to me that withholding a get is like torturing someone. Are you allowed to torture for money/custody that is halachikly rightfully yours but denied by the legal system?
Withholding a get is not an action of torture, if she feels tortured she can follow halacha and remove this "torture" from herself. He is not required to help her if she won't help herself.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #165 on: November 10, 2015, 11:50:19 AM »
In jewish law there is no provision for a "no fault Get".

Since when does a Jewish man have to give any reason beyond "I don't want to be married to her anymore" before he can issue his wife a get?
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #166 on: November 10, 2015, 11:51:20 AM »
Since when does a Jewish man have to give any reason beyond "I don't want to be married to her anymore" before he can issue his wife a get?
according to beis shamai

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #167 on: November 10, 2015, 11:51:51 AM »
according to beis shamai

We pasken that way?
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #168 on: November 10, 2015, 11:52:13 AM »
We pasken that way?
no, i meant it in jest
we hold like rabi akiva that any excuse works (I think)

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #169 on: November 10, 2015, 11:55:48 AM »
I believe in Gittin it even says a man can divorce his wife over spoiling/burning his food.

That's about as "no fault" as you can get.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline dealfinder85

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #170 on: November 10, 2015, 11:56:44 AM »
I believe in Gittin it even says a man can divorce his wife over spoiling/burning his food.

That's about as "no fault" as you can get.
thats beis hillel
rabbi akiva is even finding a better looking woman works

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #171 on: November 10, 2015, 11:57:48 AM »
So, point is, "no fault gittin" existed millenia before "no fault divorce."
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #172 on: November 10, 2015, 12:10:03 PM »
So, point is, "no fault gittin" existed millenia before "no fault divorce."
That is only a man and NOT the woman

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #173 on: November 10, 2015, 12:12:10 PM »
That is only a man and NOT the woman

That, my friend, you can take up with Gd.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #174 on: November 10, 2015, 12:24:44 PM »
Shouldn't you be in the "Where Are You Posting From Now" thread?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline SayWhat

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #175 on: November 10, 2015, 12:29:12 PM »
That, my friend, you can take up with Gd.
I don't have an issue with that but it seems some other posters did

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #176 on: November 10, 2015, 12:31:23 PM »
Shouldn't you be in the "Where Are You Posting From Now" thread?

Fine.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #177 on: November 10, 2015, 12:32:38 PM »
You obviously don't know any of the facts in this case.
In jewish law there is no provision for a "no fault Get". Until not that long ago there wasn't even a provision for no fault divorce in the secular courts. Can you believe that even in the secular courts they valued the family at one time?
The "Until not that long ago" argument is a dangerous road to go down (women can't vote, slavery is legal, blah blah). 'Valuing the family' would be ending bad marriages, not forcing them to continue; good for the courts to realize this.

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #178 on: November 10, 2015, 12:42:03 PM »
Withholding a get is not an action of torture, if she feels tortured she can follow halacha and remove this "torture" from herself. He is not required to help her if she won't help herself.
True fact

Online cholent

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #179 on: November 10, 2015, 12:44:10 PM »
True fact
How would following halacha get her a get? Just curious
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers